[sicophiliac]

Yeah so can we agree that technologically and likely very soon economically (on a per watt basis) a major solar energy imfastructure is very much possible and viable. Other issues regarding battery technology to use this energy and possibly a nationwide high speed rail system to further take advantage of it as a means to replace air travel are definitely hurdles to overcome. It looks like battery technology is getting pretty close but a high speed national rails system would cost bookoo bucks the say the least. Aside from that the major challenge to get things going seems to be political... we will need some very progressive and untainted politicians in office to act boldly and fast to get the job done. That is where the problem lies.. people are largely still ignorant of peak oil. People are stingy and short sighted about taxes and would hate to pay a few extra bucks now for the ultimate survival of the nation decades in the future. Also were up to our necks in federal debt and the war profiteers and major oil companies essentially own our federal government. The energy bill and the recent approvals of more printed dollars for Iraq are proof of that.

[waegari]

The common belief that PV's are sustainable is quite wrong. This year November Yukio Muranaga, Managing Director of Tokuyama, the world's No. 2 maker of polycrystalline silicon after US firm Hemlock Semiconductor Corp, stated:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')We are looking five years, 10 years ahead," he said, saying governments are likely to need to balance their environmental policies. "Solar cells require charcoal, which comes from trees. Producing too many solar cells means deforestation, and that just defeats the purpose of green energy."

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HydroLuver', ' ')

The current trend is towards cheaper thin film solar panels. They use 99% less silicon than the type of solar panels you are referring to. Read about what some of these companies are doing.
First Solar, NanoSolar, Energy Conversion Devices, etc.

They may have other issues, but silicon is not one of them.

[waegari]

For fairness sake, the stress on the indium market is already leading to a search for alternatives.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')
The worldwide supply of Indium is also expected to become exhausted soon.

In the search for a new transparent electrode material to replace the dwindling Indium and which is more stable, more transparent in the near-infrared region and less FTO leakage, German researchers have come across grapheme films.

Graphene is a one-atom thick sheet of carbon with essential qualities for optoelectronic devices.

Dr Linjie Zhi, a researcher at the Max Planck Institute for Polymer Research, told Nanowerk that prior grapheme composites did not have the conductivity for use as window electrodes in optoelectronic devices.

But he added: "We have developed a simple approach for the fabrication of conductive, transparent, and ultrathin graphene films from exfoliated graphite oxide, followed by thermal reduction. The obtained graphene films with a thickness of ca. 10 nm exhibit a high conductivity, comparable to that of polycrystalline graphite, and a transparency of more than 70 per cent over 1000-3000 nm."

[mos6507]

Carbon is one of the most common elements on earth. I find it hard to believe that graphene could not be produced from some recycled source if graphite mining taps out.

Same deal with copper. Copper is ubiquitous in modern society and there are plenty of recycling options.

It would also be nice if one day OLED monitors replace LCD monitors and then we could massively recycle and reclaim the indium.

I think the world is going to have to get a hell of a lot better at recycling instead of counting on a steady stream of minerals from the ground.

I think the problemn with scientists is they try to find things that work without worrying about sustainability. Then they have to backtrack and find workarounds. The thin film deal with indium is a perfect example. I would not even begin manufacturing if I knew I was beholden to a dwindling element. It's a showstopper.

And why can't more research be done in ways to make silicon WITHOUT a high output of CO2?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nano', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'S')econd, they seriously minimize the environmental impact of their plan. They describe Southwestern ecosystems as "barren" with "no competing use value." I grew up in the Sonoran desert, and I can say with certainty that it's not "barren."

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I') fully support covering the barren wasteland that is the Netherlands with solar panels in order to run American air conditioners and electric leaf blowers. There will be some inefficiencies with the transmission of power over the Atlantic, but I'm willing to make this sacrifice.

[aahala]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan

A Solar Grand Plan

By 2050 solar power could end U.S. dependence on foreign oil and slash greenhouse gas emissions

By Ken Zweibel, James Mason and Vasilis Fthenakis

A massive switch from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants to solar power plants could supply 69 percent of the U.S.’s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy by 2050.

A vast area of photovoltaic cells would have to be erected in the Southwest. Excess daytime energy would be stored as compressed air in underground caverns to be tapped during nighttime hours.

Large solar concentrator power plants would be built as well.
A new direct-current power transmission backbone would deliver solar electricity across the country.

But $420 billion in subsidies from 2011 to 2050 would be required to fund the infrastructure and make it cost-competitive.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('waegari', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I') fully support covering the barren wasteland that is the Netherlands with solar panels in order to run American air conditioners and electric leaf blowers. There will be some inefficiencies with the transmission of power over the Atlantic, but I'm willing to make this sacrifice.

[Dan1195]

Lets See.. One of the largest current solar projects, the Girassol solar power plant has 350,000 panels on 62 acres (0.097 sq. mi.) or about 3,600,000 panels per a square mile. If you want to cover 250,000 squares miles as shown in the article, that would require 900 Billion Solar Panels. In order to make that target 679 panels would have to be manufactured every single second (or 59 million a day!!) nonstop until 2050.

Even if you substitute out some of the panels with other forms or solar collection, Just on numbers alone it is simply not feasible to do this. Even a small fraction, say 2-5% is probably not feasible.

[dooberheim]

The emphasis in something like this should be on solar thermal, which is more efficient and does not have the raw material and manufacturing constraints that PV panels do.

Production of thin film panels that rely on tellurium will be severely constrained by the supply of that metal. Silicon, for all of it's difficulties, is an extremely common element.

DK