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THE Uranium Supply Thread pt 4 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Uranium Supply

Postby M_B_S » Tue 18 Dec 2007, 13:34:15

uranium 200$/ lb in 2008
200$ / lb in 2008 russion HEU cut?
"We think that there is a ceiling because if a utility were to pay US$200/lb for all of its fuel, its total cost of producing electricity would be about US$0.15/KWH, a cost at which most generators could not make money," the analysts explained in a recently published report. They added that $200 uranium "would encourage some consumers to stand on the sidelines until Cigar Lake came on stream, and that prices could not be sustained above US$200/lb for significant periods. But we do believe that a later start of Cigar Lake would lengthen the period during which prices would hover around US$200/lb."
******************************************************


Uranium is another problem not the solution to peak oil

M_B_S


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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby MCrab » Wed 19 Dec 2007, 19:32:59

As ever M_B_S provides all the ammunition to make him look foolish in his link:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')oldie and Donnelly said they anticipate that beyond 2015-when BHP Billiton's massive Olympic Dam expansion is scheduled to come on line in southern Australia-the supply of uranium could exceed demand.


To repeat a question I've asked you many times, please show that the supply of uranium is geologically constrained - i.e. that there is an insufficient resource of fissile material - that can be mined at an energy profit - to support a significant expansion of nuclear power this century.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby TonyPrep » Thu 20 Dec 2007, 04:33:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MCrab', 'A')s ever M_B_S provides all the ammunition to make him look foolish in his link:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')oldie and Donnelly said they anticipate that beyond 2015-when BHP Billiton's massive Olympic Dam expansion is scheduled to come on line in southern Australia-the supply of uranium could exceed demand.


To repeat a question I've asked you many times, please show that the supply of uranium is geologically constrained - i.e. that there is an insufficient resource of fissile material - that can be mined at an energy profit - to support a significant expansion of nuclear power this century.
The reverse is also a problem - show that a significant expansion of nuclear power can be fuelled by the uranium supply, at a net energy profit, indefinitely. If not, should we be putting resources into a dead-end? If it can be supported for some period, but not thereafter, shouldn't any expansion be solely to support a build up of renewable infrastructure?
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby Oil-Finder » Sat 29 Dec 2007, 00:03:30

Apologies if this has already been posted in this thread but if it hasn't, I think it should be of relevance.

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html

World Uranium Reserves
By James Hopf
Nuclear Engineer
October 2004

I recall reading studies in the 1970s that earnestly stated that we only had ~20-30 years of oil and gas reserves left (based on proven reserves, and the rate of consumption back then). In other words, we would have run out already. Needless to say, those predictions didn’t pan out. Despite large increases in consumption rates (especially for gas), not only have we not run out, but the estimated reserves have actually gotten larger (as more oil/gas was discovered than was consumed). This is the result of enormous efforts (and expenditures) to explore, locate, and drill for gas and oil. Now the production peak is still one (or several) decades ahead of us, and reserves won’t run dry for several decades.

In the same vein, we continually hear about how the “proven reserves” of uranium will only last ~50 years at current consumption levels. These estimates, however, have an even weaker basis than the oil/gas estimates of the 1970s, since the amount of effort and expenditure that has been put, as of today, into uranium exploration and development is far smaller than that put into gas and oil exploration, even as of the 1970s. Some have even said that the amount of uranium exploration is more equivalent to that which had been put into oil exploration as of the 1900s (when Western Pennsylvania surface oil was just about all anyone knew about). This is probably an exaggeration, but not to as great an extent as one may think.

Around the end of WII, efforts began to search for uranium and to develop the discovered deposits. Over a short time period, and with relatively little effort, a large number of uranium ore veins, of various grades, were discovered. In the early days, an enormous amount of future nuclear power generation was predicted, and a large number of mining operations were planned and/or developed. There were a few “mother-lode” sites (in Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent, the US) that had enormous veins of high-grade ore, and which had a very low cost of production. There were also a large number of smaller, lower-grade sites.

Two things happened down the road which greatly reduced the demand for mined uranium, relative to the initial predictions. First of all, the use of nuclear power grew much more slowly than anticipated, due to lower-than-expected growth in electricity demand (after the 1970s), as well as other factors like the glut of cheap natural gas (in the 1990s) and the anti-nuclear movement. The second thing that happened was the nuclear arms reduction treaties, and the resulting decommissioning of nuclear warheads. The highly-enriched (weapons grade) uranium in these warheads can be blended down to make much larger quantities of low-enriched reactor fuel. It is estimated that warhead uranium will provide almost half of the nuclear power plant fuel in the US between 1990 and 2010, thus cutting the demand for mined uranium in half.

As the demand for mined uranium fell substantially (as opposed to growing as expected) the price of uranium ore plummeted. This caused all of the lower-grade ore mines to shut down. Only the few large, ultra-high grade ore sites could produce ore at a low enough price to make a profit. With only a handful of sites in operation, and a large number of known deposits (and even developed mines) not operating due to the low market price, all uranium exploration and development came to a complete halt, as there was simply no reason to look at all for more uranium, let alone invest significant sums of money to do so.

Lately, the price of uranium ore has increased substantially, from less than $20/kg to over $40/kg today. This is occurring due to the anticipation of the end of the weapons uranium stockpile, along with improved prospects for increased nuclear power generation. As a result of this price increase, several things are happening. There are now numerous reports of old, lower-grade ore sites going into development, as they will now be profitable. Also, many properties with uranium potential are now being explored, and many are being found to contain economically recoverable uranium. Reserves are increasing as we speak.

One important fact that must be understood is that, unlike the gas and oil, the cost of the uranium ore is a negligible fraction of the cost of nuclear power (with almost all of nuclear power cost being in the form of value added by domestic labor). Specifically, at today's price of ~$40/kG of uranium, the ore costs amount to only ~0.1 cents/kW-hr (i.e., only ~2-3% of nuclear’s total power cost). The ore cost could increase by a factor of 10 (to ~$400/kg) and nuclear's power cost would only increase by ~1 cent. Thus, whereas gas and oil applications are extremely sensitive to the cost of fuel, and can be rendered uneconomical by even a small increase in fuel price, nuclear power is almost immune to ore price increases. Thus, the maximum price for uranium ore, above which nuclear power would become uneconomical, is extremely high indeed.

If an extremely high ore price is tolerable, then very low grades of uranium ore can be considered as possible reserves. As the permissible ore grade (uranium concentration) goes down, the amount of recoverable uranium (i.e., reserves) goes up exponentially. As is discussed in more detail later, limitless supplies of uranium are present in seawater and in the earth’s crust, which can be extracted at some price. The question is how much uranium is available at a cost that doesn’t truly price nuclear power out of the market.

The “proven reserve” estimates are flawed for two primary reasons. First of all they do not consider the fact that very little effort, or money, has been put towards uranium exploration thus far. Second, they do not adequately account for the tiny effect that uranium ore price has on final nuclear power price, and the maximum allowable prices that they use to determine “economically recoverable” reserves are far too low.

The effort made thus far in uranium exploration is absolutely negligible compared to the many hundreds of billions (trillions?) of dollars that has been invested in oil and gas exploration, technology development, and extraction, etc… As the history of oil and gas shows, as these investments are made, more and more reserves are found. As discussed earlier, we stopped exploring for new uranium deposits relatively soon after we started looking, since we rapidly found “all we need”, due to sluggish nuclear expansion and the glut of uranium from decommissioned weapons. Now, even the majority of known sites and mines lay idle due to the low ore price (although this is starting to change).

As the price of uranium ore goes up, significant resources will go into uranium exploration, and many new deposits will be found, including many high-grade ore deposits that were simply never discovered. It is likely that the amount of uranium in yet-to-be-discovered high-grade (low cost) ore deposits greatly exceeds that which exists in currently-known high-grade deposits. In addition to these high-grade deposits, a large number of lower-grade deposits, both currently known and yet to be discovered, will become economical and will be developed. This is what happened with oil and gas, and it is even more clear that this is what will happen with uranium. Given that uranium produces about a million times as much energy as an equivalent mass of oil, gas, or coal, the amount of energy locked up in uranium (in the earth’s crust) exceeds that locked up in fossil fuels by several orders of magnitude. This bodes well concerning the amount of uranium that will/can be eventually discovered and developed.

Current estimates of “economically recoverable” reserves apply an upper price/cost limit of $135/kg for uranium ore. This price cutoff does not sufficiently appreciate the lack of effect that ore cost has on power cost. It corresponds to a power price increase of only ~0.25 cents/kW-hr, versus today’s $40/kg ore price. Uranium sources that cost up to $500, and perhaps even ~$1000/kg (which would increase nuclear power’s cost by 1-2 cents/kW-hr) can still be economic, especially in a CO2-emission-constrained world, and/or a world where gas and oil have started to run out. Even at $1000/kg, advanced nuclear plants should be able to produce power at ~6 cents/kW-hr or less. The cost of power from post-production-peak gas or oil plants, or from coal plants with full CO2 sequestration, is likely to be higher than this. Finally, it should be noted that (as discussed later), at a uranium price of $500-1000/kg, breeder reactors become economical, and the uranium supply effectively becomes infinite.

It must be stressed, however, that the cost of uranium ore is not likely to ever approach $1000/kg. One reference that discusses all the potential sources of uranium on earth is Deffeyes and MacGregor. It lists various formations and minerals, etc.., that contain uranium, the concentration at which the uranium is present, and the estimated cost of extraction. On one end, there are our current high-grade deposits, where we currently get all of our uranium. On the other end of the spectrum is seawater, which has an essentially infinite amount of uranium, but at a very low concentration (and high expected extraction cost). The source with the largest overall quantity of uranium is the granite in the earth's crust. This actually has a much higher concentration than seawater, and has tens or hundreds of thousands of years worth of uranium.

Using the Deffeyes & MacGregor data you can estimate the total reserves of uranium that can be extracted, as a function of the maximum allowable ore cost. As the allowable cost goes up, the potential supply exponentiates. Extrapolations using this data shows that at a (still economical) price of a few hundred dollars per kg of uranium, there is enough recoverable uranium to provide all of our nuclear power needs for several hundred (perhaps 1000) years, even at a greatly increased rate of usage.

And note, this is even for the once-through cycle, which only makes use of the U-235. If we went to breeders, the amount of uranium ore used, per unit of electricity generation, is divided by a factor of 60-70. Not only that, but since 1/60th as much ore is used, the tolerable ore price increases by yet another factor of 60. This, of course, causes another exponential increase in the economically recoverable reserves. If we go with breeders, we have enough economically recoverable uranium to meet all our power needs for tens, probably hundreds of thousands of years. It should be noted, however, that the price of ore will have to go extremely high ($500-1000/kg) before breeding would make economic sense, and this won't happen for well over a century; plenty of time to develop safe, reliable, and economic breeder technology.

In summary, the actual recoverable uranium supply is likely to be enough to last several hundred (up to 1000) years, even using standard reactors. With breeders, it is essentially infinite. Hundreds of thousands of years is certainly enough time to develop fusion power, or renewable sources that can meet all our power needs.

As far as I can tell, none of the nuclear utilities have shown any real concern about long-term uranium supplies, and for good reason. This is basically a non-issue. The 50-year supply “problem” is most often brought up by two groups, both of which have a vested interest. First, there are the groups opposed to nuclear energy, who use these reserves estimates to argue that nuclear power has no long-term future anyway, and is therefore not worthy of significant investment. The second group consists of nuclear engineers and scientists who are devoted to the concept of a closed fuel cycle, where breeders or spent fuel reprocessing (to re-use the uranium and plutonium in spent fuel) is used. They argue that unless these methods are used, nuclear has no long-term future, because standard reactors (using the once-through fuel cycle) only have enough fuel (uranium ore) for a few more decades.

Whatever the merit of these groups’ goals, these arguments are based on a false premise. Long-term uranium supplies are simply not a real problem. Even if (in the distant future) uranium ore does get really expensive, market forces, and nuclear technology, are equipped to handle it. Advances in extraction technology, along with higher ore prices, will exponentiate the recoverable reserves. Breeder reactors, which will become more economical in 50-100 years, will eventually appear and eliminate all supply issues. All indications are that we will have plenty of time (50-100 years) to develop such breeder technology, before the cost of ore really starts to impact nuclear economics. This is true even under the highest nuclear power growth scenarios.

—James Hopf
Nuclear Engineer
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby TonyPrep » Sat 29 Dec 2007, 03:09:43

He may be right about uranium but it is, essentially, wishful thinking. He also started with a wrong premise, that predictions 30 years ago were for oil to run out by now. Whilst there may have been such predictions, I think Hubbert estimated a peak around the turn of the century, not total depletion, and he may have been right if it wasn't for the huge drop in demand in the 80s.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby mkwin » Sun 30 Dec 2007, 13:02:33

Yes, a nuclear engineer gives a well-founded reasoned counter argument to the non-sense theory of peak uranium and it is classed as 'wishful thinking'.

Just about sums up the doomer mentality for me.

Also Hubbert's peak year was 1990-1995 and as we know he wanted nuclear to replace fossil fuel power.
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Brown solution to peak money, peak oil=Nuclear reactors!

Postby threadbear » Sun 30 Dec 2007, 23:05:42

I hate to say I told you so, but....told you so. Interesting how environmental concern, climate change "challenge" and financial meltdown are dovetailing and coalescing around a single solution. Brown plans to kickstart the building of nuclear reactors all over the U.K. Who knew? (me!) :lol:

The pernicious scumbags and clowns in charge, will choose a financial and psychological low point to push their reactors on a demoralized population of over-spenders. The British proletariat's perception of their glowing future will be as collective punishment, whether they can articulate it or not.. They shan't complain, as it will be one of the few sectors employing people and they will WANT to believe nukes are the green solution. 8O

The Guardian:

Brown indicates that ministers will soon embrace a new generation of nuclear power stations. The government believes that renewing Britain's civil nuclear power programme is the most effective way of guaranteeing security of supply while tackling climate change. 'Because a good environment is good economics, we will take the difficult decisions on energy security - on nuclear power and renewables - so British invention and innovation can claim new markets for new technologies and create hundreds of thousands of new jobs.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics ... tworkfront
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby americandream » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 00:05:24

Very succinct comment threadbear on the perilous state of latter day government, faced as it is with the unsustainable demands of its own creation, a growth driven economy premised on the absurd notion of an infinitude of planetary resources, and its inability to resolve this the ultimate of dilemmas when confronted with the sad fact of depletion.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby TonyPrep » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 06:05:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'Y')es, a nuclear engineer gives a well-founded reasoned counter argument to the non-sense theory of peak uranium and it is classed as 'wishful thinking'.

Just about sums up the doomer mentality for me.
The well-founded reasoned counter is all supposition, possibly well-founded supposition, but supposition nonetheless. If you think we should go full pelt on the basis of supposition and start to become as dependent on another finite resource, then I'm afraid I'd have to profoundly disagree. If we've learned anything from the fossil fuel fiasco, surely it is that if we must depend on a secure supply of energy, it must be renewable energy, and only at a rate that doesn't deplete finite resources that are needed to harness that energy, that doesn't exceed the renewal rate of the renewables, and doesn't harm our environment.

The doomer mentality is with those who constantly seek the impossible, of infinite growth in a finite world.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby Sys1 » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 07:18:16

Well, if every country on Earth switch to nuclear for electricity, we'll have very soon not enough uranium to do so...
Please, people from foreign countries, don't take uranium, let it for France! (I'm french).
Why don't you choose some great biofuel magic or funny coal and billions of green windmills?
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby Starvid » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 08:10:25

There's plenty of uranium to go around for everyone, even though there is a faulty meme about it not being the case spread around by people who don't know much about the geology or processing of nuclear fuel.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby Sys1 » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 08:39:26

Starvid : if uranium were so cheap and abundant, PO would be a non evenement. Guess what? It's not the case.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby bl00k » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 08:44:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'T')here's plenty of uranium to go around for everyone, even though there is a faulty meme about it not being the case spread around by people who don't know much about the geology or processing of nuclear fuel.

So nuclear-power is a temporary solution to Peak Oil then?

And could you enlighten me about uranium reserves?
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby Starvid » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 09:03:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sys1', 'S')tarvid : if uranium were so cheap and abundant, PO would be a non evenement. Guess what? It's not the case.

Read my signature.

Nuclear power provides electricity, not liquid fuels. It's not a silver bullet.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby Starvid » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 09:10:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bl00k', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'T')here's plenty of uranium to go around for everyone, even though there is a faulty meme about it not being the case spread around by people who don't know much about the geology or processing of nuclear fuel.

So nuclear-power is a temporary solution to Peak Oil then?

And could you enlighten me about uranium reserves?

The best work on the subject is MacGregor and Deffeyes (yes, the grand old man of the PO movement), "World Uranium resources" Scientific American, Vol 242, No 1, January 1980.

The reason there has been so little research on the subject is that as reserves are so vast, no one has really cared to see exactly how vast they are, and because there are well known industrialized technologies to increase the reserves even further, for example via recycling of the fuel. Furthermore, uraniuam has been dead cheap and still is. It's a very minor cost for nuclear power plants, who care far more about the interest they have to pay on the big loans needed to build reactors.

Anyway, there is a problem with MacGregor and Deffeyes. I'll let Deffeyes himself explain it.

http://www.energybulletin.net/9248.html$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')EP. BARTLETT: Thank you very much. And another one for Matt Simmons. Why is nuclear power not getting more attention in the U.S. as it is in Europe? Although the building of nuclear power plants may not mitigate the adverse effects of the oil crisis, it could provide long-term energy.

MR. SIMMONS: I was in a program at the University of Wyoming this weekend and I heard the most articulate speaker on nuclear - on the benefits of nuclear power. This is hard to see, but this is basically one nuclear uranium pellet. And this uranium pellet is the equivalent of a ton of coal. And one pellet - five pellets this size heat a home for a year. So we have got to go back to nuclear energy. It just takes a long time. And we can basically tackle the spent waste. That’s a military problem.

But we also have to remember that nuclear power is electricity. We’re going to have to have electricity because of our natural gas problem, but it doesn’t solve the oil problem, period.

MR. SPEARS: Do we know what the supply lifetime of uranium is? Some estimates are as short as 50 years for uranium, at our current consumption rate.

MR. SIMMONS: This guy was actually part of a company in Saskatoon, Canada, our largest supplier. The reality is we don’t have a clue, but we haven’t explored for uranium for about 40 years.

REP. BARTLETT: I get widely divergent estimates of how much fissionable uranium is left in the world, from 30 years to 200 years. Before we can really have an effective dialogue about how to address this problem, we need to have an agreement on what the problem is. And there is just so much difference of opinion out there, and I talked to the National Academy of Sciences. They would be delighted. We need to find the money for them. We need an honest broker somewhere that tells us roughly what the truth is because we have widely divergent opinions now as to how much fissionable uranium is out there.

MR. DEFFEYES: I suggest you look at the Scientific American for January 1980, Deffeyes and MacGregor, on the world uranium supply.

REP. BARTLETT: And how much is there, sir?

MR. DEFFEYES: Every time you drop the ore grade by a factor of 10, you find about 300 times as much uranium, so that going down to the ore grade of - going down through the ore grades continues to increase the supply. But just about the time we were writing that Scientific American article, these enormously rich deposits, and big deposits in Australia and Canada sort of blew away our early estimates and we had to quickly increase the estimates. There are deposits in Saskatchewan so rich that the miners can’t be in the same room as the uranium, where the uranium is being mined. They mine it by remote control. So at the moment we’re swimming in uranium, but the Deffeyes-MacGregor piece, which comes out with a Hubbard-like curve, says that, no, we can go on down, and specifically we don’t need a breeder reactor.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby sjn » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 10:50:27

Starvid, you are neglecting to consider the effect PO and the resulting geopolitical consequences are going to have on the ability to ramp up the uranium mining industry. It gets increasing energy and capital intensive to persue poorer ores at exactly the time when energy and capital is going to be least available. This is why I've suggested in the past that new build reactors should be breeders.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby mkwin » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 13:34:55

Uranium was not formed by chance geological events that happened millions of years ago as with oil and gas.

High-grade uranium ore currently on the books as resources would last 85 years at current rates of consumption but that is because there has, until recently, been no economic need to waste tens or hundreds of millions dollars finding and developing other resources. The renewed drive in 2004 has already significantly increased the proven reserves and that is based on a relatively low spot price.

From Here: http://nuclearinfo.net/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s of the beginning of 2003 World Uranium reserves were:

Reasonable Assured Reserves recoverable at less than $US130/kgU (or $US50/lb U3O8) = 3.10 - 3.28 million tonnes. Additional reserves recoverable at less than $US130/kgU (or $US50/lb U3O8) = 10.690 million tonnes.

As of the beginning of 2005 World Uranium reserves were:

Reasonable Assured Reserves recoverable at less than $US130/kgU (or $US50/lb U3O8) = 4.7 million tonnes. Additional recoverable Uranium is estimated to be 35 million tonnes

The substantial increase (almost 50%) from 2003 shows the results of the world-wide renewed exploration effort spurred by the increase in Uranium prices which commenced in 2004. This increase in activity has continued through to 2006. Thus, the provable uranium resources amount to approximately 85 years supply at the current level of consumption with current technology, with another 500 years of additional reserves. It is worth noting that the numbers above do not reflect the considerable increase in Uranium exploration that has taken place in 2005 and 2006.



and from here: http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/News/200 ... urces.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')ranium 2005: Resources, Production and Demand - also called the "Red Book" - estimates the total identified amount of conventional uranium stock, which can be mined for less than USD 130 per kg, to be about 4.7 million tonnes. Based on the 2004 nuclear electricity generation rate of demand the amount is sufficient for 85 years, the study states. Fast react
or technology would lengthen this period to over 2500 years.


However, world uranium resources in total are considered to be much higher. Based on geological evidence and knowledge of uranium in phosphates the study considers more than 35 million tonnes is available for exploitation.

The spot price of uranium has also increased fivefold since 2001, fuelling major new initiatives and investment in exploration. Worldwide exploration expenditures in 2004 totalled over US$ 130 million, an increase of almost 40% compared to 2002, and close to US$ 200 million in 2005. This can be expected to lead to further additions to the uranium resource base. A significant number of new mining projects have also been announced that could substantially boost the world´s uranium production capacity.

In the longer term, continuing advances in nuclear technology will allow a substantially better utilisation of the uranium resources. Reactor designs are being developed and tested that are capable of extracting more than 30 times the energy from the uranium than today´s reactors.

By 2025, world nuclear energy capacity is expected to grow to between 450 GWe (+22%) and 530 GWe (+44%) from the present generating capacity of about 370 GWe. This will raise annual uranium requirements to between 80 000 tonnes and 100 000 tonnes. The currently identified resources are adequate to meet this expansion.



The URR for uranium is also far more price elastic in that, as the price increases, a huge amount more resources will be economically viable. This is true even without thorium fuel or breeder reactors or highly effcient 4th generation reactors, which would effectively remove all potential uranium supply restrictions. As with most things in the peak oil/energy debate, economics of the alternatives are the reason the current energy system exists in the way and form it does. Uranium is a derived demand of nuclear energy (and weapons) which has been on a downward trend since the 1970's. Hence development and exploration of resources has been low and the use of atomic materials from former warheads has further depressed the market for uranium.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n 2005, seventeen countries produced concentrated uranium oxides, with Canada (27.9% of world production) and Australia (22.8%) being the largest producers and Kazakhstan (10.5%), Russia (8.0%), Namibia (7.5%), Niger (7.4%), Uzbekistan (5.5%), the United States (2.5%), Ukraine (1.9%) and China (1.7%) also producing significant amounts.[39] The ultimate supply of uranium is believed to be very large and sufficient for at least the next 85 years[33] although some studies indicate underinvestment in the late twentieth century may produce supply problems in the 21st century.[40] It is estimated that for a ten times increase in price, the supply of uranium that can be economically mined is increased 300 times.[41]


The key is the price elasticity of supply of uranium and the fact the fuel costs are a far smaller component of the cost of nuclear energy that fossil fuels. At $95 the current developed resources might only be viable at a profit for 30-50 years but if you increase the spot price to $400 the economically viable resources increases by a large order of magnitude. It is that simply. The resources are known and the prices at which commercial organizations can make a profit extracting them can be estimated with some certainty.

It just amazes me that intelligent people can not understand this concept. I am fully behind the concept of, the geologically exceptional resource, oil declining in th near future. But uranium? Come on. Peak oil is not peak energy! it is a liquid fuel problem.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he doomer mentality is with those who constantly seek the impossible, of infinite growth in a finite world.


Who said anything about infinite economic growth? I am talking about energy production from a proven technology.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby TonyPrep » Mon 31 Dec 2007, 14:54:54

This is the first time I've read of known economic reserves being of the order of 85 years at current consumption rates; all articles I've read up until now have talked of 40-45 years (even one that tries to debunk nuclear critics).

I guess one will always tend to seek out, and pounce on, anything that supports one's current thinking.

Not that such figures mean very much when a long term growth in the consumption of those resources are envisaged.
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Re: Brown solution to peak money, peak oil= NUKES!

Postby cube » Tue 01 Jan 2008, 05:21:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..
The Guardian:

Brown indicates that ministers will soon embrace a new generation of nuclear power stations. The government believes that renewing Britain's civil nuclear power programme is the most effective way of guaranteeing security of supply while tackling climate change.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics ... tworkfront
Why can't the Brits just pay the French to build the nuke plants? The entire world knows the French have a superior program. Why reinvent the wheel? Is this an issue of pride? :wink:
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Re: Uranium Supply

Postby ANewHuman » Tue 01 Jan 2008, 10:13:45

I put breeder reactors into the same category as cold fusion. Where are these reactors producing power in any significant amount? You have the same "pro nuclear" people telling us how nuclear can power anything and everything as you do in the solar industry ("A solar field the size of 10% of state of Arizona can supply USA electrical needs"), wind industry and coal industry (yeah coal can be "clean"). They have all been debunked, completely, up until this point of time.

People saying that uranium reserves increase exponentially based on price? The price over doubled and a supposed 44% increase in reserves occurred. The fact that no one seems to question the mining companies whose share price increases based on their tonnage "find" is mind boggling. We already have 100s of cases of mining companies misleading investors with bigger than reality finds. Not to mention the exporting of uranium is becoming a bigger and bigger hurdle for some countries due to foreign policy (will Australia keep sending U3O8 to China if a war develops with the USA or human rights violations continue? Not at $100/lb it won't).

If nuclear power is going to save us from an otherwise dark world then regardless of the uranium issue is the building of upto 7-10 times the current reactor capacity by 2040. Even if all the hurdles were cleared to allow these reactors to be built, could it be done? You would bet your life on saying 'no'. All the resources you use to build them are increasing in price, some significantly. Any major construction project (like reactors) are constantly undergoing "budget recalculations" due to this.
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