[retiredguy]

Loki,

I understand your concern, but don't share your belief that governments will seriously address the global warming issue.

At least until a crisis or a series of crises demanded some sort of action.

My thinking is that peak oil will become a crisis long before the worst efforts of climate change manifest themselves.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'I') understand your concern, but don't share your belief that governments will seriously address the global warming issue.

[careinke]

Billg,

Actually my water is privatized. I have a well. As for roads and most other infrastructure, these could/should be handled at the state level.

I think you should read the tenth amendment in the constitution again. It will better explain my position.

Don't get me wrong, I think global warming and peak everything are very serious problems. I just don't think any government is going to be able to solve the problems. Based on those assumptions, I feel the best chance for survival is to not have a fascist or socialist government running my life.

Cliff (Start a rEVOLution)

[billg]

Well, I'm mainly referring to large sources of water like lakes and rivers. As for private wells, you need to consider that water also belongs future inhabitants of the land.

Yes, I do think road infrastructure should be handled at state or local level for the most part.

I'm a believer in federal government only as far as they carry out functions necessary to the functioning of the whole. But I guess that statement is subject to a range of interpretation.

What I believe in primarily is self-responsibility and self-curtailment. Ideology is no substitute for that. I think responsible government will emerge from responsible individuals independent of ideology.

I don't think libertarianism and collectivism are mutually exclusive, but rather both vital elements to a well-functioning society.

In a lot of ways, I see this whole issue of individual freedom vs. collectivism in terms of my own experience living is self-governed intentional communities. Some people abuse their individual freedoms to the detrimental of the whole, and some people use their individual freedoms to benefit the whole. It all depends on the individuals. To me it seems that the system of government seems less important than the individuals that compose it. But also, the system of government will reflect the individuals who compose it.

I think that I would be more inclined to support Ron Paul if he talked a little more about individual reponsibility and little less about individual freedom. Also, he would have to acknowledge that not all issues are local, but some are global like AGW and Peak Oil and need to be addressed on a collective level.

In fact, I don't think that Ron Paul has even acknowledged that AGW is a big problem. This tells me that his ideology trumps all other considerations.

[retiredguy]

For most of its history, the US was run by governments that were libertarian in nature.

FDR changed all that. Even his socialistic policies didn't bring the country out of recession. It took WWII to do that.

Please don't use the term "global warming." How about "climate change" instead? We are having the coldest and snowiest winter in 30 years. Most folks in these parts would like a little global warming.

[billg]

The Arctic ice sheet lost half of its volume in the last 3 years. Antarctica temps are way up too. Regional temporary anomalies don't indicate overall trend. That is the problem with myopic thinking.

Consider:

NASA says 2007 second-warmest year ever, with record warmth likely by 2010

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hrough the first 11 months, 2007 is the second warmest year in the period of instrumental data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) analysis. The unusual warmth in 2007 is noteworthy because it occurs at a time when solar irradiance is at a minimum and the equatorial Pacific Ocean has entered the cool phase of it natural El Nino--La Nina cycle. ...barring the unlikely event of a large volcanic eruption, a record global temperature exceeding that of 2005 can be expected within the next 2-3 years.

[billg]

If our weather seems relatively unchanged from the past, it only because the huge volume losses in ice throughout the world have helped to dissipate the heat that is being added by atmospheric carbon. The Arctic ice cap is a very inexpensive cooler in that it doesn't raise sea level when it melts. The same can't be said about Greenland and Antarctica.