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PO may be a moot question

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PO may be a moot question

Postby shortonoil » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 15:40:45

Recent studies released on global warming may make the whole problem of PO seem irrelevent:

http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=1138

Then again this blog in Urban Survival today might mean next week is the deadline, not next decade:

From Urban Survival:

[i]"Up to the moment 333 earthquakes have been assessed with magnitudes equal or bigger than 4.0 grades. In the figure 1 shows himself so much the average number of seismic events and his magnitudes I mediate using windows of 25 events. In the last 24 hours an increase is observed both in the magnitude and in the average of the number of events (it figures 1), which can be interpreted as the continuity of the activity, since to indicate that the same one diminishes it would be necessary to observe a decrease in both parameters: magnitude and number of earthquakes."

"In the figure 2 shows himself the distribution of the number of events and his magnitudes using an interval of classes for his magnitudes of 0.2 grades and taking as the axis of the abscissas the top rim of the limit of classes. Since one can notice in the figure 2, the majority of events possess magnitudes about 4.3 grade (126 event seismic) and 23 % of events has presented magnitudes major than 4.5 grades (77 seismic events), the same ones that in the main have been strongly senses in several cities opposite to the End of the St Lawrence and the Saint's Peninsula Elena."

Then we chatted about what it means. First, it substantiates the viewpoint that I expressed over the past couple of weeks (see Past Issue). Second, there's more going on off the coast of Ecuador than is being picked up and reported. Thirdly, and based on an hour or so of number crunching I did yesterday, I expect the reported quake levels will rise from their present period of quiescence to sizeable levels in about a week's time.

Does this means another mega quake? Maybe, but the odds are too hard to calculate (I'm an MBA - not a trained geologist). Nevertheless, the trend of increasing quakes over time is apparent in the U.S.G.S. numbers when you back out "no magnitude events" and the reality of continuing tectonic movement around the Pacific Ring of Fire can not be denied. The question is not if this causes some impact on the U.S. mainland down the road, but rather when. There seems to be a 9 and 15-day cycle in quakes, so if the pattern I'm watching is real, look for big shaker news out 5-9 days from today.

More volcanoes have popped off in the last week than have popped off in all of 2004. The single volcano in New Guinea released more sulfuric and carbon dioxide (not steam) gases than all the volcanoes of 2004. The release was so big according to Russian sources that it disturbed the upper atmosphere.

Although we can’t reveal the actual contents of the www.halfpasthuman.com web bot run which is just wrapping up, we can report that the number of languages in which people discussed “noises coming from deep within the earthâ€
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Postby MikeB » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 17:11:00

"Urban Survival" recently published the "results" of a "survey" showing that there was an inordinate number of persons who visit that website who experienced "RINGING IN THE EARS" before the Great Quake in Indonesia. This was published with great fanfare.

I give them little credibility.
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Postby shortonoil » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 17:23:31

Is this report:
Meeting The Climate Challenge
also lacking credibility?
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Postby MikeB » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 17:33:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s this report:
Meeting The Climate Challenge
also lacking credibility?

Perhaps not, good point. But I'm sure the good information can be gotten from a more reputable source. Urban Survival sounds cracked about 50% of the time.
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Postby shortonoil » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 17:45:57

"More volcanoes have popped off in the last week than have popped off in all of 2004."

The Indo quake was a magnitude 9+

Semic activity all along the Pacific Ring is bizarre.

And your concern is a more reputable source?
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Postby BabyPeanut » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 18:07:33

http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~ward/papers/La_Palma_grl.pdf

Just look at the pictures on that PDF to get an idea of what unexploded bombs sit aimed at the US.
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Postby 27010 » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 18:26:13

MikeB wrote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Urban Survival" recently published the "results" of a "survey" showing that there was an inordinate number of persons who visit that website who experienced "RINGING IN THE EARS" before the Great Quake in Indonesia. This was published with great fanfare.

I give them little credibility.
..............................................

A bit like this site then........
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Postby Ludi » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 20:17:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')ho experienced "RINGING IN THE EARS"


Actually, if you're near the epicenter of a quake you can hear a deep "thrum" like a bass cello note before the quake. I experienced this before aftershocks of the Northridge CA earthquake (I lived in Van Nuys at the time).
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Tautology

Postby EnviroEngr » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 20:53:48

Okay then...

How's this for tautological irony:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10 ... index.html
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Re: Tautology

Postby pilferage » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 22:07:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'O')kay then...

How's this for tautological irony:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10 ... index.html

What I'm wondering is whether they included global dimming into their model. If they did that study like any other recent study then chances are they didn't... and we'll see an increase in the amount of energy reaching the planet, so even if there isn't enough CO2 to trigger global warming, the increase in energy reaching us might offset that.

P.s. You wouldn't happen to know what the active lifespan of a CO2 molecule is versus your average particulate's lifespan?
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Postby EnviroEngr » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 23:04:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P').S. -- You wouldn't happen to know what the active lifespan of a CO2 molecule is versus your average particulate's lifespan?


Not off the top of my head. But, I did find this:
http://www.cac.yorku.ca/general/intro.html

wrt particulates per se, EPA has been telling the regulated community to think PM 10 and PM 2.5

In terms of my Title V Permit, when I go after PM 10, I'm chasing macromolecular compounds, silicas, metal grits and 'huge' oxides, i.e., your run-of-the-mill dust.

PM 2.5, on the other hand, tends regulatorily to be a 'regional haze' argument of sorts so that what you're looking at is NOx, SOx, COx, VOCs, metal oxide fumes and ultrafines. That 'particulate' you're referencing up there is undoubtedly one of these characters.

To see which does what, you need the oxyradical valence affinity energies (Connolly & Huckel come to mind too) for each of these molecules in 'standard state'. What that'll give you is a way to rank which ones will take on or give up an oxygen atom (by way of electron 'reactivity') first, second, third, etc. {this does a pretty good job of explaining it: http://www.howe.k12.ok.us/~jimaskew/chem/cbond.htm } With this info in hand, now you go after the ultraviolet photon flux in the benchmark air space and see what kind of energies are present to reshuffle the atomic/molecular deck and then determine if these levels disturb and/or recombine none, some or all of the species you have in mind.

I have a CRC Chemistry and Physics Handbook. Next time it comes down to desk level, I'll look some of these things up.
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Re: Tautology

Postby MonteQuest » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 00:20:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'O')kay then...

How's this for tautological irony:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10 ... index.html


But then they also said...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')oal-burning could easily make up the shortfall. But burning coal would be even worse for the planet, as it would create even more CO2, he said.
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Postby MonteQuest » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 00:28:41

Get this... :P
Fossil fuels - atmospheric and crustal displacement


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Earth is beginning to go through tremendous geophysical and climatic upheavals, and the evidence is mounting. Many levels of environmental displacement are taking place. On one level, the pumping of fossil fuels in massive quantities from the crust of the Earth is causing the weight of the planet's surface mass to change dramatically. The balance of surface mass is changing so fast that weather patterns must change radically and rapidly as nature makes a desperate attempt to keep the planet balanced.


http://archive.alienzoo.com/politicsand ... fuels.html
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Re: Tautology

Postby MonteQuest » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 00:36:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnviroEngr', 'O')kay then...

How's this for tautological irony:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/10 ... index.html

What I'm wondering is whether they included global dimming into their model. If they did that study like any other recent study then chances are they didn't... and we'll see an increase in the amount of energy reaching the planet, so even if there isn't enough CO2 to trigger global warming, the increase in energy reaching us might offset that.

P.s. You wouldn't happen to know what the active lifespan of a CO2 molecule is versus your average particulate's lifespan?


Probably not. I am collecting data for the Global dimming website and most climate models are not factoring in GD as yet. GD will more than offset the CO2 decline is the current thinking. Some of the excess CO2 is expected to remain in the atmosphere for thousands of years.
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Postby aldente » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 01:18:46

After reading the two links on runaway "feedback-loop" greenhouse effect it seems truly irrelevant how we judge current affairs. There are two routes to go: Number one: Olduvai and Jay Hansons "dieoff"
Number two: get spiritual. I am alway struck by people like David Hawkins who seemingly is untouchable by anything
http://veritaspub.com/
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Postby MonteQuest » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 01:39:35

Here's the report mentioned in the initial post article:

MEETING THE CLIMATE CHALLENGE
RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE INTERNATIONAL CLIMATE
CHANGE TASKFORCE


http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/{E9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03}/CLIMATECHALLENGE.PDF
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Postby shortonoil » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 17:37:55

There have recently been two papers published in Nature regarding the potential danger of a methane hydrate release.

http://www.nature.com/nature/links/021212/021212-3.html

Could someone with access to these articles please summarize the abstracts?

I realize that methane hydrate is a dodecahedral structure that is held together by van de Waals forces. This undountly makes it very weak in shear. I am wondering if massive MH release is expected to come from the failure of MH structures overlaying free methane deposits, or some unkown characteristic of the methane hydrate phase properties. This NOAA methane hydrate phase diagram:

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorati ... agram.html

indicates to me that perhaps not much was not known about the phase transition at 0 deg C.

Any help would be greately appreciated.
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Postby khebab » Wed 02 Feb 2005, 18:04:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', 'T')here have recently been two papers published in Nature regarding the potential danger of a methane hydrate release.

http://www.nature.com/nature/links/021212/021212-3.html

Could someone with access to these articles please summarize the abstracts?

The links on the web page you provided give an access to the full papers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ecreased stability of methane hydrates in marine sediments owing to phase-boundary roughness

W. T. WOOD*, J. F. GETTRUST*, N. R. CHAPMAN†, G. D. SPENCE† & R. D. HYNDMAN‡

Below water depths of about 300 metres, pressure and temperature conditions cause methane to form ice-like crystals of methane hydrate1. Marine deposits of methane hydrate are estimated to be large, amassing about 10,000 gigatonnes of carbon2, and are thought to be important to global change3, 4 and seafloor stability5, 6, as well as representing a potentially exploitable energy resource7. The extent of these deposits can usually be inferred from seismic imaging, in which the base of the methane hydrate stability zone is frequently identifiable as a smooth reflector that runs parallel to the sea floor. Here, using high-resolution seismic sections of seafloor sediments in the Cascadia margin off the coast of Vancouver Island, Canada, we observe lateral variations in the base of the hydrate stability zone, including gas-rich vertical intrusions into the hydrate stability zone. We suggest that these vertical intrusions are associated with upward flow of warmer fluids. Therefore, where seafloor fluid expulsion and methane hydrate deposits coincide, the base of the hydrate stability zone might exhibit significant roughness and increased surface area. Increased area implies that significantly more methane hydrate lies close to being unstable and hence closer to dissociation in the event of a lowering of pressure due to sea-level fall.

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