[KillTheHumans]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')t doesn't change Monte's point significantly but it is worth noting:

The median age of Pakistan is 21, meaning that MQ's assertion of 70% of the population under 16 is impossible.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')The median age of Pakistan is 21, meaning that MQ's assertion of 70% of the population under 16 is impossible.

Global Health Facts says that 40% of Pakistan's population is under 15, not 70%.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KillTheHumans', ' ')PLEASE!!! HOW DARE YOU DO THE MATH!!!!

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')t was your dismissive reaction that I was referring to.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')t was your dismissive reaction that I was referring to.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hat type of thinking is what the casues the problems we now face. I have heard the same mantra for over 37 years from people without an ecological paradigm. Next?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'S')o lets say you are dictator of the world and enforce a power down to 1/5 our current level.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', ' ')So lets say you are dictator of the world and enforce a power down to 1/5 our current level. You said you don't want us going back to the caves, so we have to get our power from somewhere. Any possible way you generate that power is going to despoil the environment to some extent. Fossil fuels are unsustainable and cause global warming, nuclear power produces radioactive waste, solar power shades the desert, and wind power kills insects. What method of power generation do you pick?

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hat's probably too much, not sustainable. Just FYI. Probably needs to be more like 1/10 our current level.

[FreakOil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')hat's probably too much, not sustainable. Just FYI. Probably needs to be more like 1/10 our current level.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')ustainable renewable ecologically sound power.

[yesplease]

Those figures seem fairly accurate, and not very surprising IMO. Business tends to support it's own until it becomes prohibitively costly to do so, they don't wanna piss in their beer and all that. That being said, current organic farming has ~80% of the yield that fossil fuel intensive farming does, in a sustainable fashion. Cutting livestock production could make up the difference in yields while keeping land use constant since so much energy is lost between trophic levels.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'W')hat I'm saying is that I can only indirectly effect the reproductive actions of other people.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FreakOil', 'I') don't think we should assume current plant and livestock production. Industrial agriculture is heavily dependent on petroleum and natural gas. I've read elsewhere on this site that that agriculture takes up 10 percent of all fossil fuel used in the United States, including transport to market. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

If fuel were rationed and the appropriate amount set aside for farmers, we could keep the industrial agriculture machine going for some time to come. But I fear the consequences. Industrial agriculture degrades the soil. If not for natural gas fertilizers, you might end up with a desert in the midwesterm states.

[BigTex]

Sorry to backtrack here, but what would that long term population growth chart a few pages back look like if superimposed on a global oil production graph covering a similar period?

(I know oil production prior to 1800 or so is going to be near zero).

I'm sure this idea has been addressed many times before, but is there any reason to believe that the population growth curve will differ significantly from the oil production growth curve going forward?

I think that any arguments for a divergence of the two curves in the future would be an interesting discussion. That's really what the techno-fix camp is suggesting, right?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'S')orry to backtrack here, but what would that long term population growth chart a few pages back look like if superimposed on a global oil production graph covering a similar period?

(I know oil production prior to 1800 or so is going to be near zero).

I'm sure this idea has been addressed many times before, but is there any reason to believe that the population growth curve will differ significantly from the oil production growth curve going forward?

I think that any arguments for a divergence of the two curves in the future would be an interesting discussion. That's really what the techno-fix camp is suggesting, right?

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')


People point to charts like this in order to frame a fallacious argument.

[Tyler_JC]

RGR,

That useless chart doesn't reflect the rise and then drop of per capita energy use from 1950 to 2000 (peaking in 1979).

But considering that energy efficiency has skyrocketed since then, REAL per capita energy use has increased dramatically.

Just like how we would never talk about GDP without adjusting for inflation, why are we talking about energy use without adjusting for efficiency?

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'R')GR,

That useless chart doesn't reflect the rise and then drop of per capita energy use from 1950 to 2000 (peaking in 1979).

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'W')ell, power won't feed anyone... Just like ecologically sound agriculture won't power a fission reactor. But, that being said, are you contending that we couldn't feed 6.7 billion with ecologically sound practices, assuming current plant and livestock production?