Fill in the blanks:
"United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in ______ 's presidential election despite a ______ terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from (capital city) 83 percent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the _______. A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President _______'s policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in _________."
- Peter Grose, in a page 2 New York Times article titled, 'U.S. Encouraged by _______ Vote,'
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Democracy is Victorious
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Democracy is Victorious
by Oilgood » Mon 31 Jan 2005, 22:37:33
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by uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Mon 31 Jan 2005, 22:57:29
well, Duh! they were threatened with having their rations of food and water cut off if they didn't go and risk getting blown up to vote. Yeah some democracy. Which american sponsored candidate did they choose?
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by Oilgood » Mon 31 Jan 2005, 23:04:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MikeB', 'V')ietnam, 1967, I believe. I JUST saw the posting(at Buzzflash?). Something very sad and hilarious about it.
Correct. Here is the full paragraph:
"United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 percent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam."
- Peter Grose, in a page 2 New York Times article titled, 'U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote,' September 4, 1967.
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by Geology_Guy » Mon 31 Jan 2005, 23:41:30
In Germany 1945 the citizens had little love for the US. We had just finished carpet bombing their civilians for 4 years. We occupied that country for 15 years and brought them democracy at the point of a gun. We still have troops there by the way. I wonder why the Germans are not asking us to leave?
Was it wrong to occupy Germany?
Was it wrong to occupy Germany?
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by Oilgood » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 01:17:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'I')n Germany 1945 the citizens had little love for the US. We had just finished carpet bombing their civilians for 4 years. We occupied that country for 15 years and brought them democracy at the point of a gun. We still have troops there by the way. I wonder why the Germans are not asking us to leave?
Was it wrong to occupy Germany?
Was it wrong to occupy Germany?
It might have something to do with the fact that the US never propped up an unpopular authoritarian puppet regime in Germany.....
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by Geology_Guy » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 01:38:02
Many US companies like General Electric openly traded with Hitler's goverment in the 1930's. Top US officials openly visited Nazi Germany. The German people suffered and died (well mostly the Jews and the Gypsies and the liberals) under Hitler all through the 1930's and America and the rest of Europe did nothing-NOTHING.
We did support Saddam to our shame, but does that not mean that we have a responsibility to help the Shia and the Kurds? I can't figure out your logic. We help impose a madman as ruler of Iraq-bad move I agree. Then we have to let the madman kill as many Shia and Kurds as he wants because after all he is our guy?
If the people of Iraq want Saddam back they are now a free people-they can vote him back in.
We did support Saddam to our shame, but does that not mean that we have a responsibility to help the Shia and the Kurds? I can't figure out your logic. We help impose a madman as ruler of Iraq-bad move I agree. Then we have to let the madman kill as many Shia and Kurds as he wants because after all he is our guy?
If the people of Iraq want Saddam back they are now a free people-they can vote him back in.
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by Oilgood » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 03:51:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geology_Guy', 'M')any US companies like General Electric openly traded with Hitler's goverment in the 1930's. Top US officials openly visited Nazi Germany. The German people suffered and died (well mostly the Jews and the Gypsies and the liberals) under Hitler all through the 1930's and America and the rest of Europe did nothing-NOTHING.
We did support Saddam to our shame, but does that not mean that we have a responsibility to help the Shia and the Kurds? I can't figure out your logic. We help impose a madman as ruler of Iraq-bad move I agree. Then we have to let the madman kill as many Shia and Kurds as he wants because after all he is our guy?
If the people of Iraq want Saddam back they are now a free people-they can vote him back in.
We did support Saddam to our shame, but does that not mean that we have a responsibility to help the Shia and the Kurds? I can't figure out your logic. We help impose a madman as ruler of Iraq-bad move I agree. Then we have to let the madman kill as many Shia and Kurds as he wants because after all he is our guy?
If the people of Iraq want Saddam back they are now a free people-they can vote him back in.
A specious comparison. Modern day Iraq is very different from Nazi Germany, as are the Iraqis different from the Germans. You probably can't figure out my logic because I haven't explicitly expressed any position. I merely find it both sad and curious how history "rhymes" as Mark Twain put it. Ends don't justify means; means condition ends. Build something with shoddy materials and handiwork, and it will most likely be operationally defective when it is built, whether it is a space shuttle or a government.
Incidentally, the first time the allies imposed democracy on Germany was the Wiemar Republic...which provided the fertile seeding ground which gave rise to Nazi Germany. The Germans did have resentment towards USA et all after all, they just had it earlier than you think. Now after WW2, why didn't the Germans have the same animosity toward the US as the Iraqis do? Again, they are two very different situations, but it might have something to do with the following:
*The presence of a belligerent expansionist superpower on their doorstep, the USSR, which made American occupation far more attractive than it otherwise would be.
* The comparative racial and cultural similarities of the Germans and Americans/Allies, versus Americans and Iraqis.
*The military, morale, spiritual, and economic exhaustion of the German people.
*The recognition by leaders that if the didn't tread carefully, it might blow up in the allies faces yet again, just like the Treaty of Versailles helped give rise to the Third Reich.
*The money, effort, "Marshall Planning" etc that America and the Allies put into rebuilding Germany. Is America making anything remotely similar to that effort with modern day Iraq?
*American private businesses 60 years ago trading (sometimes illegally) with Nazis does not equal an American government propping up a regime today.
*Germany was/is an ethnically homogenous nation compared to Iraq.
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by Geology_Guy » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 10:14:45
Thank you for the spirited debate. Actually in 1947 52% of all Germans polled wanted Hitler back and said that they resented the American occupation.
You gave some valid reasons for obvious differences. One other difference is that the Germans were more scared of the Russians than they were resentful of US occupation. You are correct-Hitler was very skillful in twisting the failures of the Wiemar Republic. I would beg to differ though about a minor point. The Weimar republic was not forced upon Germany. The Versailles treaty certainly was, but the Weimar Republic was a home grown government. Things might have been different if Lenin had been successful in turning Germany communist.
I think that we could as least come to commom terms on this proposition. The people of Iraq deserve to be free.
You gave some valid reasons for obvious differences. One other difference is that the Germans were more scared of the Russians than they were resentful of US occupation. You are correct-Hitler was very skillful in twisting the failures of the Wiemar Republic. I would beg to differ though about a minor point. The Weimar republic was not forced upon Germany. The Versailles treaty certainly was, but the Weimar Republic was a home grown government. Things might have been different if Lenin had been successful in turning Germany communist.
I think that we could as least come to commom terms on this proposition. The people of Iraq deserve to be free.
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by Geology_Guy » Tue 01 Feb 2005, 10:21:19
PS-You did mention the Soviet superpower which I just noticed. Also Germany had many minorities before WW2. Hitler killed most of them off as you well know. This include Jews, Gypsies, Poles, etc-many millions of them actually.
Some of the trading with the Hitler government was illegal, but much was not. You say this is different from our support of Saddam-fine. You never did say why we did not have a responsibility to get rid of Saddam because he was our guy.
Some of the trading with the Hitler government was illegal, but much was not. You say this is different from our support of Saddam-fine. You never did say why we did not have a responsibility to get rid of Saddam because he was our guy.
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