[GreyGhost]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GreyGhost', '
')Yes that makes sense. Or, on a larger scale, if we have less energy available for activities like building nuclear reactors (which are "discretionary" compared to, say, eating), so we don't build them and end up needing to consume more fossil fuels.

[Arkwright]

Asian markets dive

Japan -2,5%
S-Korea - 3,3%
Australia -1,4%
Hong Kong - 4,5%
Signapore -3%
Shanghai -4%

Black monday globally? we'll see.

Edit: Dow went below 13.000 at the end of the day.

[jbeckton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')Not every drop is extracted equally...that is the point...in fact it is estimated that a large amount of oil will be left in the ground because it is too costly to extract.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')Not every drop is extracted equally...that is the point...in fact it is estimated that a large amount of oil will be left in the ground because it is too costly to extract.

[Twilight]

The power industry does not have to supply consumers who cannot afford what it charges. Once the inputs are more expensive than what consumers of the output can afford, it can shed consumers unable to pay. This lowers input requirements hence costs and a new profitable price point is reached. Doing this constantly, it can ride the oil decline right up to the end of reliable physical availability in sufficient quantities and quality. If this is deemed politically unacceptable, the government can pick up the difference and perform the trick in a less sensitive area. I believe there will be sufficient power demand by people able to pay deep into the decline.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'T')he power industry does not have to supply consumers who cannot afford what it charges. Once the inputs are more expensive than what consumers of the output can afford, it can shed consumers unable to pay. This lowers input requirements hence costs and a new profitable price point is reached. Doing this constantly, it can ride the oil decline right up to the end of reliable physical availability in sufficient quantities and quality. If this is deemed politically unacceptable, the government can pick up the difference and perform the trick in a less sensitive area. I believe there will be sufficient power demand by people able to pay deep into the decline.

[Twilight]

Of course, in the endgame you describe, collapse is the only possibility that lies beyond some limit. It's game over once the oil available confers no economic benefit. Until then, we stagger on.

[Revi]

I think that there will be power, but just in communities who can pay for it. For example the Kennebec valley where we live will shrink down to those places near the power stations, on the rivers. A lot of the hydropower will simply leave, down to Southern Maine and Boston. It will go to the places where people can pay for it, and the lines can be guarded. Maybe it will stay up at Sugarloaf, but not out in the boonies. I am planning on not having any power. We have a pv system and solar hot water.

Things are deteriorating right on schedule. Duncan may be right, the lights may go off around 2012.

The problem is that no matter how cynical I get, it's hard to keep up with what's going on.

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'O')f course, in the endgame you describe, collapse is the only possibility that lies beyond some limit. It's game over once the oil available confers no economic benefit. Until then, we stagger on.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'O')f course, in the endgame you describe, collapse is the only possibility that lies beyond some limit. It's game over once the oil available confers no economic benefit. Until then, we stagger on.

[Twilight]

Yes, that makes sense, thanks.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'S')ome could argue the crash began in August...JP Morgan set to write down 200 Billion...consumer (read American citizen) is dead...oil peaked...

Can ya dig it?

Charles Hugh Smith

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere are a few predictions:

1. The Dow Jones Industrials will drop hundreds of points in a day, very soon, losing at least 3,000 points within the next few weeks.

[Fiddlerdave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o... yah, I can dig it. Yet another doomer scud belly flops into the desert. BWAHAHAHAHAHA....

[threadbear]

J.Denver, I thought you made some good observations on the extreme doom scenarios on Peak Oil forums, but you are all wet on the economy. You're seeing the cancer stage of an "incentive" based capitalist economy slowly cannibalizing itself, with the help of expensive fuel.

An economy that rests on rewarding incentive, works until it doesn't, for reasons of logistics. It has gone way beyond that in the U.S. where an over ripe economy is slowly rotting, like a bad apple, from the core, outward. The further away from the core you are, the less evident it may be. There are rewards for initiative, of all kinds, in laissez faire capitalist system, including criminal action.

This is why I am a committed left leaning libertarian. Capitalism works sometimes, and simply fails at others. The U.S. has failed.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'J').Denver, I thought you made some good observations on the extreme doom scenarios on Peak Oil forums, but you are all wet on the economy. You're seeing the cancer stage of an "incentive" based capitalist economy slowly cannibalizing itself, with the help of expensive fuel.

An economy that rests on rewarding incentive, works until it doesn't, for reasons of logistics. It has gone way beyond that in the U.S. where an over ripe economy is slowly rotting, like a bad apple, from the core, outward. The further away from the core you are, the less evident it may be. There are rewards for initiative, of all kinds, in laissez faire capitalist system, including criminal action.

This is why I am a committed left leaning libertarian. Capitalism works sometimes, and simply fails at others. The U.S. has failed.

[threadbear]

I would check your insults, Mr. Bill, because believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of my insults, should I care enough to take the time to return the favour.

You question my understanding of laissez faire capitalism?

What starts out as a great system, where human scale businesses are forced to compete, in an incentive based system, can easily change if it is not forced to remain competitive by govt. When the excesses of greed are further exacerbated by corporations undermining the watchdog functions of govt. you have corporations running the show, distorting the political process, and in the U.S even authoring legislation verbatim, in their favour.

We have had some of the same in Canada, with Mulroney and the Shreiber affair. So don't be daft.

People always assume that less govt is good for business. What if govt is the only body that can enforce free markets, through use of it's body of laws? Bit of a paradox, isn't it?

[threadbear]

The narrow minded see the dense forest of regulation and thicket of red tape as proof that govt. interference is always a bad thing. Corporation love this kind of govt interference, as it serves their purposes. They can survive and thrive while the red tape drives out competition. And that, kind sir, is textbook libertarian left philosophy, which criticizes oligopolic control, and the inappropriate role of govt in it's support.

[steam_cannon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'h')ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good

[KillTheHumans]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'S')ome could argue the crash began in August...JP Morgan set to write down 200 Billion...consumer (read American citizen) is dead...oil peaked...

Can ya dig it?

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fiddlerdave', 'A')ccording to the experts yesterday, the Fed has come up with this new way ("term auction facility") to mint money to stave off (for a little while longer) the crash. The current estimate is to inject 45 billion/month in this fashion (increases as needed, we are sure). A true "Hail Mary" pass to the end zone. What could possibly be next as the system absorbs this largess and yet cries for more