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Coal to Liquid Fuels (merged)

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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Tyler_JC » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 21:05:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'C')an someone here give me the directions to where an ACTUAL nuclear power plant is being built NOW. I think a field trip would be well worth it :) :) :)

I believe nuclear could've saved us, if we wouldn't had taken the SUV/gasoline route back 15 years ago and went the route of the EV1.

Why would some rich dude who is happy using oil (he won't have to worry) invest in some scheme that doesn't benefit him (the goverment sure the hell isn't doing anything to solve the problem/you think Clinton or Mr 9/11 is???)?

I still say the rich say F U and fly away to Dubai or New Zealand or some remote place and play with their yachts and weiners.

The rich always win!


1. The Rich need a functioning society to live in.

2. Invest is the key word. If investing in nuclear power is profitable, it will be done.

3. Governments can have a major impact on society. Look at Roosevelt's New Deal. An Energy New Deal could dramatically change our energy infrastructure. I'm not saying it is guaranteed to happen, I am merely saying that it could happen. And for those who believe it is impossible or that the government is broke, I would argue that defense spending once made up 10% of GDP (Korean War), now it is less than 4%.

If the country could handle 10% of its economy devoted to a war that had little positive impact for American society, surely it could handle 5% of its economy devoted towards building an energy infrastructure that would yield immediate dividends.

Or you can choose to believe that the government is full of corrupt money-grubbing assholes who don't care about anything and want the entire country to burn to the ground.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Kylon » Wed 07 Nov 2007, 03:45:28

I agree! With the right market incentives, the rich would invest in the construction of power plants.

Furthermore, as a recession/depression sets in, labor will become dirt cheap. So the construction cost will go way down.

On top of that, if we mass produced nuclear power plants, pre-assembled them in a factory, that would drastically reduce the cost of nuclear power even more.

With the elimination of 5 year permit times, instead becoming 1 year permit times, and with all the construction factors I mentioned above, nuclear power plants could easily be built on a large scale as needed.

The energy crunch, Peak Coal, you say that some estimates are as bleak as 10-20 years, well let's see, if the U.S decided to hog all of it's coal for itself(instead of export any of it), decided to let the price of gasoline/fuel rise to 10-20 dollars a gallon(forcing everyone to live closer to work), then there would be plenty of fuel to power the construction of nuclear power plants.

What your also forgetting is demand destruction, as prices rise, the wasteful practices of convience will be thrown out the window.

People won't go on Summer vacations two thousand miles away. People won't gorge their faces with crispy creme donuts, people won't go sky diving, essentially most luxuries, except for the very rich, will disappear.


The 2000 mile casear salad will breath it's last.



People will focus on what's necessary to survive. Some won't survive, but that's a cost of any depression. The morbidly unhealthy(such as HIV victims) will probably die off. The extremely elderly and sick will be cut off from expensive medical care. These will be human sacrifices. Many of the baby boomer generation will either work, or die. Social security may collapse, medicare will almost certainly collapse. A major re-adjustment of our living conditions and expections will have to occur.

But in the long run of things, civilization is here to stay.

Even if Americans like myself watch our civilization get destroyed due to incompetance(hoping that won't happen, but it's a possibility) then civilizations like France(80% nuclear!) and Sweden(very good policies concerning energy and environment) will survive, and thrive in the new age, as resources like steel and aluminum become cheap from the decaying carcasses of other civilizations. And eventually if we do get wiped out, then those nuclear powered Europeans will be able to re-colonize the world once the world is reclaimed(it's possible, just throw in enough hydrophobic iron), and expand their civilizations. THis is just about the worse case scenario, just saying, that if worst comes to worst, there is a place to go, and the human race will survive.

If we were on the other hand to spend just 10-20 years, of heavy labor in building up our primary infrastructure, Nuke Breeder reactors, and worked with the rest of the world to reverse global warming through hydrophobic iron seeding, the things that matter most, then we could have within 20-30 years a lifestyle maybe the same, if not better then the one we have now.

If we cool down the planet, and stop the global dimming process that would mean more rain, and milder temperatures. With a cooling of the planet, less water would evaporate and less would be needed to cool down industrial plants, with less global dimming, the pan evaporation rate would increase, leading to more rain.

Furthermore, hurricane strength would go down.


As for global warming...

If global warming gets too bad, we'll use ground water cooling to cool/heat our homes, we'll reduce our water usage due to droughts, focusing primarily on drinking water, necessary industrial use, and agricultural use, and as energy becomes more expensive we'll tone down our lives.

We'll live a simpler life.


Ultimately, if we play our cards right, and we get working together on this, and reach out to politicians who need our input and ideas, we might possibly create a nuclear powered environmentally friendly civilization.

If we fail, then civilizations rise and fall, then maybe it's our time to fall.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby jbeckton » Wed 07 Nov 2007, 09:37:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'I')f one puts JB, PA, AP, and you side by side and one squints while looking at the line up...you are really all essentially the same.


And there is a big difference between any two conspiricy therorists?

Nope, they pretty much all eat out of the same bag of chips right?

They never beleive in just one CT, the usually believe in almost all of them.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MassiveDieOff » Wed 07 Nov 2007, 20:53:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
The wimps and whiners want to quit and lay down and give up before things even get tough, and they want everybody else to give up too. So let 'em give up, to be swept into the dustbin of history.

The rest of us will just have to leave them where they drop and get about the business of building nukes and hydrogen cars and and androids and flying cars all by ourself. Its time for the men of action to roll up their sleeves and get started at creating the new American economy from the shell of the old...... :wink:


Please read carefully: http://peakoil.com/fortopic1687.html

Note it is a LAW not a theroy.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Tyler_JC » Wed 07 Nov 2007, 22:05:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
The wimps and whiners want to quit and lay down and give up before things even get tough, and they want everybody else to give up too. So let 'em give up, to be swept into the dustbin of history.

The rest of us will just have to leave them where they drop and get about the business of building nukes and hydrogen cars and and androids and flying cars all by ourself. Its time for the men of action to roll up their sleeves and get started at creating the new American economy from the shell of the old...... :wink:


Please read carefully: http://peakoil.com/fortopic1687.html

Note it is a LAW not a theroy.


Advanced human civilization does not require 6.5 billion people.

There is no contradiction between global dieoff and the continuation/advancement of modern civilization.

There are large numbers of people who do not contribute to, the global civilization project.

Many of them are actually large net-takers from the project.

For example, if the millions of people living in shanty towns around Rio De Janeiro, Mexico City, Lagos, etc. died off, would they crash industrialized civilization?

You can have a mass die off in one part of the world while having a renaissance in another.

Global carrying capacity is as useless as the concept of national poverty level.

Obviously some places are going to have higher carrying capacities than other places.

Wondering where the dieoff will occur?

Look at this map of global cereal imports.

Map

Look how disproportionately large Mexico, Central America, northern south America, North Africa, and parts of the Middle East are.

There's your die off.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 01:21:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', ' ')it is a LAW not a theroy.


The idea that human die-off will occur sometime in the future because of the effects of peak oil is neither a "law" nor a "theroy" (sic).

It is a prediction. The prediction of human "die-off" may or may come true.....the future is notoriously difficult to predict. :-D
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MonteQuest » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 02:29:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', ' ')it is a LAW not a theroy.


The idea that human die-off will occur sometime in the future because of the effects of peak oil is neither a "law" nor a "theroy" (sic).

It is a prediction. The prediction of human "die-off" may or may come true.....the future is notoriously difficult to predict. :-D


But basic biology and ecology is not.

It is also not a prediction, it is a consequence of overshoot.

The die-off will occur due to overshoot with energy the #1 candidate in the running for "least abundant necessity."

Liebig's Law of the Minimum is most assuredly an ironclad law that sets carrying capacity.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby roccman » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 02:34:09

Righteous!!!

PA meet MQ!!!

Big dog comes a runnin' when he hears the dinner bell!!
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Tanada » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 06:26:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'T')here are large numbers of people who do not contribute to, the global civilization project.

Many of them are actually large net-takers from the project.

For example, if the millions of people living in shanty towns around Rio De Janeiro, Mexico City, Lagos, etc. died off, would they crash industrialized civilization?

You can have a mass die off in one part of the world while having a renaissance in another.

Global carrying capacity is as useless as the concept of national poverty level.

Obviously some places are going to have higher carrying capacities than other places.

Wondering where the dieoff will occur?

Look at this map of global cereal imports.

Map

Look how disproportionately large Mexico, Central America, northern south America, North Africa, and parts of the Middle East are.

There's your die off.


Looking carefully at your map I see the USA, Canada, Australia, Italy and Poland as place that either do not net import or net export grain crops. Kind of makes me feel a tiny bit more likely to survive the famine.

I wouldn't want to be in Indonesia, China, Egypt, Iran, Spain, OR Mexico when global food trade stops or even seriously slows down. Anyone have stats on how ethanol corn is impacting exports from the USA/Canada?
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 13:11:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', ' ')it is a LAW not a theroy.


The idea that human die-off will occur sometime in the future because of the effects of peak oil is neither a "law" nor a "theroy" (sic).

It is a prediction. The prediction of human "die-off" may or may come true.....the future is notoriously difficult to predict. :-D


But basic biology and ecology is not.

It is also not a prediction, it is a consequence of overshoot.

The die-off will occur due to overshoot with energy the #1 candidate in the running for "least abundant necessity."

Liebig's Law of the Minimum is most assuredly an ironclad law that sets carrying capacity.


Sure. And numerous studies of population dynamics in natural systems ranging from bacteria in a petri dish to Brown Bears in Alaska demonstrate "Liebig's Law" is valid.

So we are left with:

1. Extrapolating from current conditions to infer what will happen in the future is a prediction.

2. Yes, "die-offs" of animal populations are a well-known consequence of overshoot due to the depletion or scarcity of an irreplacable resource in accordance with Liebig's Law.

3. If petroleum turns out to be an irreplacable "necessity" for human populations, then we may very well be in "overshoot" and the prediction that will be a "die-off" in the near future will turn out to be correct. Alternatively, if petroleum can be replaced with other energy sources, then predictions of imminent human "die-off" may turn out to have been overly pessimistic.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MassiveDieOff » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 13:36:09

i wish it was up for debate, i trulely do. the fact is that we are in overshoot now and there will be a huge die off.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 13:47:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', 'i') wish it was up for debate, i trulely do. the fact is that we are in overshoot now and there will be a huge die off.


A colony of bacteria growing in a petri dish with a limited amount of agar needed to survive will grow to overshoot and then experience die-off.

A colony of human beings growing in the same petri dish with a limited amount of agar would just send out for pizza. 8)
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MassiveDieOff » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 14:02:40

unfortunately the pizza place will have no gas to send out the pizzas and the humans in the perti dish will starve to death
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 17:23:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', 'u')nfortunately the pizza place will have no gas to send out the pizzas and the humans in the perti dish will starve to death


That would indeed be very sad.

Fortunately, kylon and others have already thought of that. Thats why they are suggesting making gas from coal. Then they could cook the pizza, put the coal-gas into the car, make their delivery, and get a nice shiny dime for a tip from the friendly but cheap folks living in the petri dish. :-D
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MassiveDieOff » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 19:16:46

nazi germany and apartheid SA tried that and it didnt work
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Tyler_JC » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 20:29:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MassiveDieOff', 'n')azi germany and apartheid SA tried that and it didnt work


To be fair to the Nazis and South Africans (not that those Racist f***ers desire fairness), they weren't exactly competing on an equal footing with the rest of the world.

The Nazis were being bombed by allied aircraft on a rather regular basis, invaded on multiple fronts, and were attempting to conquer an entire continent of half a billion people.

And yet they were supposed to be able to compete with cheap American oil with coal-to-liquid?

In the future, there won't be any cheap oil for anyone so the example of Nazi Germany is clearly useless.

And what do you mean coal-to-liquid didn't work in South Africa?

It's working right now!
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MonteQuest » Fri 09 Nov 2007, 01:48:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '3'). If petroleum turns out to be an irreplacable "necessity" for human populations, then we may very well be in "overshoot" and the prediction that will be a "die-off" in the near future will turn out to be correct. Alternatively, if petroleum can be replaced with other energy sources, then predictions of imminent human "die-off" may turn out to have been overly pessimistic.


And what new non-solar energy source do you see coming on line?

And what about the requisite environmental sinks to absorb the wastes of that energy use?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Catton', '"')Whichever of the two historic approaches we take, either choosing to accelerate drawdown or indulging in additional takeover, our new ecological paradigm enables us to see that eventually we will end up shifting back to the other. Either traditional way, if prolonged, leads to an inhuman future ... not toward the lasting solution of temporarily vexing problems ... For any lasting solution, we must abandon both of these ultimately disastrous methods. Drawdown bails us out of present difficulties by shortening our future. Takeover was of lasting value earlier in human history, but that time is past.

"We must learn to live within carrying capacity without trying to enlarge it. We must rely on renewable resources consumed no faster than at sustained yield rates. The last best hope for mankind is ecological modesty."
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Fri 09 Nov 2007, 03:39:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')what new non-solar energy source do you see coming on line?


Oh, lets round up the usual suspects. I suspect we'll see some mix of solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, and biofuels. There will probably be more of some of the old-fashioned alternative fuels, like coal-liquid and coal-gas. And possibly some high tech wild cards, like DNA modified Palm-oil etc. to make "tree-oil" and breeder reactors. Still on the drawing board are High temp nukes that produce electricity and hydrogen, with the hydrogen then being used to run fuel cells and power cars and trucks. And maybe even some things no one has thought of yet.

How many years away do you think the big die-off is?
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby MonteQuest » Fri 09 Nov 2007, 21:51:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')what new non-solar energy source do you see coming on line?


Oh, lets round up the usual suspects. I suspect we'll see some mix of solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, and biofuels.


Non-solar. Geothermal is the only one not solar.

Do you grasp why our new overshoot energy source replacement cannot be solar?

(Hint) Takeover method.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow many years away do you think the big die-off is?


How many have to die before it is considered big?

10 million children flat starved to death last year, millions more died of malnutrition and disease.

How many years?

No one knows, as no one knows what the decline rate of oil will be, and no one knows how fast global cliamte change will happen.

We are gambling in the biggest way possible.
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Re: Why Don't We Just Ramp Up Coal-Liquid?

Postby Plantagenet » Fri 09 Nov 2007, 23:58:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')what new non-solar energy source do you see coming on line?


Oh, lets round up the usual suspects. I suspect we'll see some mix of solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, and biofuels.


Non-solar. Geothermal is the only one not solar.

Do you grasp why our new overshoot energy source replacement cannot be solar?

(Hint) Takeover method.




Please explain why we can't develop more solar energy because of the "takeover method." The "takeover method" doesn't have a listing in Wikipedia, but I gather it refers to the takeover of population niches by other species or conquest of other people by colonizing humans....

takeover method

P.S. tides are mainly caused by the gravitational attraction of the moon, and are not a manifestation of solar energy.
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