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I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 15:05:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he history of the U.S, is sanitized, while the Communist countries are demonized.


Noting the historical facts that nazis carried out the holocaust and communists murdered over 100 million people in their countries during the 20th century is not "demonizing" nazis and communists....unless you think historical facts should be ignored and sanitized in order to cover up the crimes of the nazis and communists. 8)


"Facts" are subject to interpretation. And this is not about the Nazis, so don't shift the conversation. We're talking about Communism here. And there is NO way that over 100 million were "murdered" by Communists, within their own borders. This is just the kind of nonsense that leads to complete freaking hysteria. Noone likes brutal dictatorships, but the lack of perspective here, that allows Americans to review their own history through rose coloured glasses is beyond belief. Your own country is bathed in the blood of lynched blacks, Southern plantation gulags and murdered, slaughtered Aboriginals. Your imperial wars have killed untold millions in foreign lands.


Learn some history. The facts about nazism and communism are not "subject to interpretation" as you claim. The nazis and the communists established the two major totalitarian systems of the 20th century. Once they took power, both the nazis and communists destroyed the human rights of their people and killed millions of people. The nazis were amateurs compared to the communists, who killed well over 100 million during the 20th century, making them the worst mass murderers of all time.

death toll of 20th century mass murderers

Nazism and Communism both created terrible totalitarian systems that destroyed the human rights of their peoples and systematically murdered millions of "enemies" of their regimes. Why not admit it?
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby inculcated » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 15:11:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'N')azism and Communism were terrible. Why not admit it?


All -isms that seek to erect State constructs must do so at a cost. The cost in lives is proportional to the size of the state, regardless of ideological nomikers. The cost of capitalism through imperial and colonial projection is on par with either of the examples you indict...
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 15:18:20

Planatagenet, I'm not defending totalitarian dictatorship. I insist on seeing your sources for condeming Russia for killing 100,000,000 people. Come on. Let's have it. I'm also not discussing Nazis. There is pretty verifiable evidence that they did kill multi millions. No argument. Why lump them together to muddy the waters here? What the hell are you trying to accomplish?
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 15:39:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'P')lanatagenet, I'm not defending totalitarian dictatorship. I insist on seeing your sources for condeming Russia for killing 100,000,000 people. Come on. Let's have it. I'm also not discussing Nazis. There is pretty verifiable evidence that they did kill multi millions. No argument. Why lump them together to muddy the waters here? What the hell are you trying to accomplish?


Nazis and Communists are both totalitarians. Totalitarians have a nasty habit of killing their own people. Totalitarian governments are the main agents of government sanctioned mass murder.

I linked to an excellent source in the post above. Check it out. It contains meticulously documented counts of the murder toll by the nazis and the communists and by colonialists and militarists and all other governments through the 20th century.

I never said Russian killed 100 million people. I said COMMUNISTS killed more than 100 million people. This include the murder toll from the communist governments in the USSR, Mao's China, the communists in Cambodia, the murderous North Korean communists etc. etc. 8)
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 15:47:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'P')lanatagenet, I'm not defending totalitarian dictatorship. I insist on seeing your sources for condeming Russia for killing 100,000,000 people. Come on. Let's have it. I'm also not discussing Nazis. There is pretty verifiable evidence that they did kill multi millions. No argument. Why lump them together to muddy the waters here? What the hell are you trying to accomplish?


I think had the nazi's had as much time as the soviets and the communist Chinese, logically they would've killed many more people than the Communists because in addition to working to death (or executing) political adversaries, like the communists did they killed mainly on the basis of ethnicity.

Something else that's interesting to think about; the Chilean and Argentinian junta's supported in their respective coupes would in another time have been staunch allies of Nazi Germany.

4 million civilians were killed in Vietnam in ten years (that's almost comparable to the Jewish holocaust) and tens of millions of Indians perished in the territory that's not the US...

Still I'd have to agree with Plantagenet that the US is still relatively not so bad; I'd say no better or worse than the English and French (or Dutch) colonial empires were in 17th-19th century.

Probably the world will see a whole nother and nasty America in the coming decades though as it will increasingly violently "defend" it's fading dominance over the world, rivalling and probably more than outdo the "Evil Empires" of the past in terms of terror and human lives.

Ofcourse I hope that won't happen, but I have a strong feeling we have yet to see the worst of America I'm afraid....

(ofcourse this will be easy to "deny" when you live in America, and it's exactly this kind of denial that something like this could happen in America like it happened in Germany which is the most important step for it to actually materialize...)
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 16:08:04

The U.S isn't so bad, but neither are Russia, or Germany TODAY. And speaking of ethnicity, that's the problem in the US. Part of the sanitation of history involves the atrocities committed against "non-people" during the times the country was being formed.

The people of the US will likely have fewer rights and freedoms than most Europeans, going into the future. The dems will not give up the new powers of the executive.

Argentina and Chile actually were full of expat Nazis. That's one of the reasons it was so easy to Nazify these places in the 70's and 80's.

In truth, I don't think the Nazis were soundly defeated in WW2. They just moved their franchise.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 16:37:43

NeoCons probably learned and studied thoroughly the nazi empire to see what they could and couldn't use and are applying that as we speak, tailored to America. And ofcourse they can't be too obvious because we all know about Nazi Germany and what signs we should watch for; that heritage of Nazi Germany you could see as "positive"; the example set back then makes it harder now to emulate that "success" but indeed America seems to have more of the ingredients for a Fascist society than any other country I could think of. Sure you have a lot of "liberals" but as in Germany, the liberals seem happy to march along towards a Fascist society until it's too late to change their minds. More leftist liberals will be put in concentration camps like democratic socialists and communists were put in concentration camps in Germany. Let me see what more I can think of....the flag seems more revered than the nazi flag was in germany, the media is more succesfull in whipping up national sentiments, the merging of state and corporations seems as total as in Nazi germany after Hitler's take over......all that's missing is a big economic depression, and we all know that's coming.

I'm also afraid that the "liberal" nations will go along with America long enough to go past the point of "no return", after which we will all be "renditioned" ('xept plateagenda ofcourse)
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 16:55:48

I had it all figured out in 1995, Bas. My timeline was wrong, though. I figured that once consent could no longer be manufactured, rigged elections would ensue. Figured this would happen around 2010 to 2015.

It astonished me that the rigging began in 2000. My husband and I still argue about how it will eventually play out, when things get very rough. He thinks there is a hope it will swing left, Roosevelt style, I think it will swing right, Nazi style, in the event of an economic depression, for any number of reasons. I also see leftist liberals being rounded up, with fundamentalist Christians playing willing kapos, and the less politically noisy liberals playing along to get along.

The Germans were absolute geniuses, the way they fractured political opposition, not only within their own country, but abroad. They had the French eating out of their hands. (almost literally)

Anyway, that and medical insurance drove us North.--Am not convinced international fascism isn't in the cards for Canada too, and we will move again, if need be, and if there is a country to move to.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 17:02:22

Canada would be the logical target for an "Anschluss"....

Back in 95 I was still in Highschool, thinking America, Baywatch and Beverly Hills 90210 was great....
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 17:06:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'C')anada would be the logical target for an "Anschluss"....

Back in 95 I was still in Highschool, thinking America, Baywatch and Beverly Hills 90210 was great....


You've come a long way, "Baby"! :lol:
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 17:16:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'C')anada would be the logical target for an "Anschluss"....

Back in 95 I was still in Highschool, thinking America, Baywatch and Beverly Hills 90210 was great....


You've come a long way, "Baby"! :lol:


heheh, well I think it's easier being a foreigner (or as Americans often say, it's easier to see the truth about America when you live abroad)

And I think there's still plenty of great "subversive" media coming out of America, and don't get me wrong, while I see great dangers when America is concerned I also see great "hopes" for it to take a less evil turn in the future, but that must be my inherent positive attitude; going from history America is going to be the baddest boy of all evil empires in history.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 17:42:39

I will Shanny.

Some trivia: The Reichstag fire was blamed on a dutch "terrorist" (Marinus van der Lubbe)

All resistance fighters during the German occupation here were consequently called "terrorists".
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby inculcated » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 18:02:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')t astonished me that the rigging began in 2000.


There has never been an election in the US that was not rigged. After vanquishing mother England, the first ballots were a function of the leading local publisher getting together with the largest banking and merchant interest in a region. They would decide who would appear on the ballot, and the printer produced them. This worked for a while until the populace started grumbling about not having access and general fairness. So, they created the caucus. Of course, now the leading printer, financiers and merchants were in charge of the caucus, and they decided who got to run as party candidate, and the printer still produced the ballot. Along into the 1830's it became apparent that it might be possible for a third party to seriously challenge in the presidency, so the caucuses got the State legislatures to change from a proportional allocation to winner take all.

Your vote has never been such. Every candidate is vetted by party interests to insure compliance with the goals and agenda of the few that control finance and mercantilism. EOM.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 18:24:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 't')hreadbear wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd that is the main reason I left the country 5 years ago. The U.S is about to confront it's shadow, on it's own streets, and it's not going to be pretty.

I thought you were living on your sailboat somewhere off the coast in the US NW and spending your time visiting UFO conventions? ; - )


I don't live on board but my boat is rigged out to allow for that, in a crisis. I was in Seattle, moved back to Canadian Northwest about 5 years ago. Yes, I have attended ufo conventions. I'm interested in information flows, obfuscation, mythology, religion, and what actually constitutes reality, so it's a natural fit.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 18:27:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('inculcated', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')t astonished me that the rigging began in 2000.


There has never been an election in the US that was not rigged. After vanquishing mother England, the first ballots were a function of the leading local publisher getting together with the largest banking and merchant interest in a region. They would decide who would appear on the ballot, and the printer produced them. This worked for a while until the populace started grumbling about not having access and general fairness. So, they created the caucus. Of course, now the leading printer, financiers and merchants were in charge of the caucus, and they decided who got to run as party candidate, and the printer still produced the ballot. Along into the 1830's it became apparent that it might be possible for a third party to seriously challenge in the presidency, so the caucuses got the State legislatures to change from a proportional allocation to winner take all.

Your vote has never been such. Every candidate is vetted by party interests to insure compliance with the goals and agenda of the few that control finance and mercantilism. EOM.


There has never been a blatant rigging of election with supreme court compliance, in American history. That's what scared me the most. Everyone just kind of rolled over--most disturbingly, Gore and then Kerry.
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 18:39:15

If I had to "label" anyone cornucopian on this forum it would be MrBill.

Doesn't mean I don't respect him for his knowledge, rather I disrespect people that go around labeling people as "cornucopian" without countering the arguments "they" bring. I'd still say he's managed to stay longer in denial about some subjects than most of us, but it seems to be changing, slowly, as the economy seems to be turning a corner slowly; he refuses to make any definative statements about peakoil and the future like so many others here like to do without conclusive evidence. You could say he's conservative in the scientific sense of the word, and one of the few here in that.

So far my analysis of MrBill in the context of this forum :)
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby inculcated » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 19:04:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')There has never been a blatant rigging of election with supreme court compliance, in American history.


The election of 1876 was decided by an extra-constitutional congressionally apointed hearing board, and was peppered with back room brokering and bribery. All quite in the public domain of even the time....

[on edit]

The people in power in the US have never been all that discreet in thier machinations. For those who wish to know how the country is run, the documentation is neither scarce nor innaccessble. All that is really required is a healthy curiosity and the desire to know. Of course that first requires having had the inculcation cracked by some catalyst...
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 06:25:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'I')f I had to "label" anyone cornucopian on this forum it would be MrBill.

Doesn't mean I don't respect him for his knowledge, rather I disrespect people that go around labeling people as "cornucopian" without countering the arguments "they" bring. I'd still say he's managed to stay longer in denial about some subjects than most of us, but it seems to be changing, slowly, as the economy seems to be turning a corner slowly; he refuses to make any definative statements about peakoil and the future like so many others here like to do without conclusive evidence. You could say he's conservative in the scientific sense of the word, and one of the few here in that.

So far my analysis of MrBill in the context of this forum :)


I am neither Cornucopian nor am I a Doomer. I can recognize the reality of peak oil resource depletion as a geological fact without making broadly unsupported statements about what the economic landscape will look like in the future. Which is to say that 'we don't know, what we don't know'.

But I do get a kick out of people that get their History wrong (or at least completely out of context); that do not understand how our economy works today; but tell me with absolute certainty what the future will look like. That does make me laugh! ; - )

It may be my poor reading comprehension skills, Bas, but are you suggesting

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')rather I disrespect people that go around labeling people as "cornucopian" without countering the arguments "they" bring."


that I have ever labeled anyone a Cornocupian (fairly or unfairly)? I doubt it, but please prove me wrong. To be honest since I colored The Horn of Plenty in kindergarten I had almost never heard the term Cornocupian since until I did come to peak oil dot com? ; - )


Threadbear, you like to paint with a very broad brush without supporting your arguments with facts. That is your style. I do not understand why you hold this against others then?

Here is a prediction for you just the same. Communism and socialism do not work. All experiments have ended in failure without exception.

The only relative successes have been market economies where social-democratic governments have transfered wealth from those that earn profits to those in greater need. Creating a social-safety net. If it works for them, then so be it. It may not be efficient, but it is at least democratic.

UPDATE:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Cooperatives can work, but to be honest the larger they become the more they start to resemble and are run like corporations.


But in case you interested I happen to believe that people will choose law & order or some sort of fascism when faced with severe economic chaos. That is not my preference, but I think a natural human tendency during times of turmoil. This may or may not approximate conditions of post peak oil resource depletion? I am not too interested. It is one of those debates that cannot be won, so we will just have to see how it plays out.

Does that make me a fascist cornocupian? ; - )
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby Bas » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 06:48:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')hat I have ever labeled anyone a Cornocupian (fairly or unfairly)? I doubt it, but please prove me wrong. To be honest since I colored The Horn of Plenty in kindergarten I had almost never heard the term Cornocupian since until I did come to peak oil dot com? ; - )


Ah, no ofcourse not. I was referring to certain "doomer" elements on this board that like to take cheap shots at you when you're not "doomer" enough to satisfy their tastes.

I can see why you're not a doomer nor a cornucopian; you don't seem to like to venture too much into speculation about the future, be it "doomer" or "cornucopian".
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Re: I Want My Title to be: Commie Sympathizer

Unread postby eastbay » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 20:41:53

Who's taken a cheap shot at MrBill? How strange for someone to do something like that! I must have missed it...

He provides us all with some of the clearest and most sensible information delivered on this entire website and would be among the least expected here to receive a personally directed delivery of harsh words.

For a capitalist (actually, some of my best friends are capitalists), his perspectives are very interesting and definitely help quite a few here decide how to best prepare for and ride out our communal oil depletion situation.
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