[thuja]

I know this is Aaron's site and we don't get to change what we're doing but...

Its been interesting watching this ride- first it was informative cornucopian vs. doomer debate- now it has become doomer vs. uber doomer debate...

New people coming on board who didn't get to see the first debate might be a tad confused...what about flying cars though? They may just see a whole bunch of doomers and say...ridiculous...bye bye...

Should there be an intro section for newbies so they can "get it" before jumping into our doomer porrn? Should there be a way to ease the masses into our nightmare? Or should we just let the few, brave and strong remain while most everyone else runs fleeing?

[ironborne]

I agree with you 100% that there is too much uber doomer crap. The highlight was a about a week ago when I was checking out the new posts in Preparedness. It was something about "what would make all you people happy". The doom and utter bull of those postings was disgraceful. It seemed the originator of the thread was doing this because he/she was also fed up.
Peak Oil to many of us is the centerpiece of an American and then global meltdown. I don't think we do a good job of showing people why when they come to the site.
There is a lot of intelligent information here and it seems to get put on the back burner so that we can live out our die-off fantasies.
As far as an intro section, I got here by reading LATOC and that was my intro.

[kadoomsoon]

You have to decide if you want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

If you want popular mechanics people here and live out a survival fantasy where everyone tills the ground naked in perfectly integrated communes, maybe they woulld be scared off a bit. But the last thing people will remember is this site and they will say, I wish I woulda studied it a bit more.

But you are right, no matter what you do the future will be the same, regardless.

Less doomer scenes, then just delete me and a few like me, I really dont mind, everyone should be happy the last few months of their lives no sense worri=ying when you can be lied to.

You know, isn't that what 9 one one was about?
They give you a lie to make it sound good?
Lets roll scenario?
All the bull?
everyone is happy and feels good, is there anything wrong with that? I dunno.
It would be happier place if doomers were removed though.
depends what you want, the truth or a happy share place.

It is tempting to vote the latter, I'll admit.
But whatever I will comply.

[jupiters_release]

We do have an introductory thread.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic6619.html

We don't have a whole lot of time before all this doom we talk about actually happens and we don't know how long the internet's gonna last so if not now when?

Die-off will happen, and ecology doesn't care how we feel about it.

[jboogy]

I'm not about to temper or soften my rhetoric in the hopes prospective members will be fooled into thinking we're nice people . Fuck em' , this isn't the happy , fuzzy bunny forum . I don't expect people to hold back their opinions in consideration of my more refined sensibilities , they shouldn't expect it of me. This is the internet , there shouldn't be restrictions on honest expression. If they're reasonably confident a timely solution to resource depletion is going to be found then welcome , come on in , sit right down and lay it on me , I only ask they give me a reach-around while they're trying to slide it in .

[thuja]

LOL- tempers tempers people- who said anything about restricting posts, writing puff pieces and trumpeting the new Cornucopian Paradise?

What I am suggesting is that there is little in the way of information being distributed here lately- just a regular rehash of the same old same old. Newbies come- get told to review the old threads by the cynical oldtimers, or get hashed when they bring up ideas such Should I hand out flyers to let people know what's happening?

The Oil Drum often discusses technical information in detail. Relocalization web sites focus on how to prepping for community preparedness. LATOC threads generally present a survivalist homesteader perspective. We do have a planning forum but it often boils down to people's anecdotes of what they did on the homestead today.

All I am saying is that this site seems to have lost a bit of its way...what is it for? What's the purpose here?

[jupiters_release]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')All I am saying is that this site seems to have lost a bit of its way...what is it for? What's the purpose here?

[TheDude]

I started the other thread mostly out of curiosity why the cornies weren't showing up purely by random, wondering if it were some leading indicator perhaps.

A Mitigation forum would be a great addition, I think. The posters at TOD rarely espouse anything based around unproven tech, distinguishing them from Cornucopians; it's inaccurate to lump them together. Giving them the invite to contribute to a specific forum would breath some new life into the site, albeit they are very busy over there in the first place.

That's where I think we should be going.

[Roy]

Bottom line: Peak Oil and its ramifications are not a fun subject. The longer the status quo continues, the more difficult the transition to a lower energy lifestyle will be.

I don't see anything changing yet.

Most folks just cannot handle the truth. The truth about Peak Oil, the truth about the US government, its motivations, its policies, and its propaganda. Overshoot, carrying capacity, petro-dollar, resource wars, imperialism etc. It goes against everything we're taught during our formal educations. Its not easy to accept, even for those of us with the ability to adapt to new information and new world views.

Perhaps there is a reason that less than 1% of us Americans know about it all. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I think its a form of natural selection.

Those who CAN handle the truth and all of its frightening, depressing, and goddamn hateful implications are the ones who are here. The ones who are getting ready for the disaster that is Peak Oil. Among us there are many different approaches, from NEOPO to Ludi to Pops. I think those three and many others here all offer beneficial information, albeit wildly varying. We have the choice to take it or leave it. I'm taking what I can and doing what I can. And to those who contribute here: I give heartfelt thanks.

I've spent way too much effort and time trying to inform my family and friends only to alienate them because "that's too negative" and "I don't have time to worry about that", "they'll think of something", and "oil is abiotic and it will never run out" et al. Soft pedaling it is a waste of time because this situation is no joke.

Call me bitter, but I've stopped spreading the word and focused doing as much as I can to make sure my family will at least have something to eat. I've even made extra preparations for those nearest and dearest to me in the event that they show up on my doorstep at the last moment when movement is still possible.

I know there are those here who say that those of us who are prepared won't be able to make it due to being surrounded by unprepared masses. That may be true, but I sure as hell will go down trying my damnedest

The predictions made here by the uber-doomers from three years ago until now are coming true, albeit in slow-motion. I believe the progression of events is slowing increasing. With more rate cuts projected from the not-Federal reserve, and honest candidates for President being ridiculed in the media, I don't really harbor much hope for a positive change before it's too late.

Take it or leave it. The fate of the willfully ignorant is not my responsibility. Believing at one time that it was caused me all sorts of problems. No more.

To answer your question Thuja: Not just no, but HELL NO!

PO is a bitter pill to swallow, but those that do have the best chance of surviving the transition. Let those that don't deal with the consequences of their decision. That's what being an adult is all about. Accepting responsibility for one's decisions.

In the end we all die anyway, so I guess it really doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things. But I'd rather live out my remaining years with some food and roof over my head. Not starving on a roadside or behind the wire in a FEMA camp.

Flame away!

[jdmartin]

Mostly what concerns me I guess is people who might be able to at least understand and spread the word coming by here and reading stories of mass die-off before December, and thinking "they're a bunch of damn nuts" and thus tossing the baby with the bathwater. I think Thuja's got a good point. I think it would be helpful to create a "doomer fantasy" or "doomer reality" forum, and let the ultra-uber-doomers post away about the apocalypse, and keep the rest of the forums more on-topic so that curious people who stumble in here don't run away shrieking in horror.

Even if you subscribe to the idea that we're all SOL anyway, what could possibly be the harm in disseminating information to others, so that they might actually try to make a difference? For as much as the hard-core doomer might say so, I seriously doubt most people here want to see Mad max zombie hordes wreaking havoc on their abandoned towns...who would keep the internet servers running?

[TheDude]

The last thing you want to do is to try and put the fear in people, I believe. Or make them think you're some kind of Green hippie. It's proving out that the most successful tactic for Powering Down (or whatever term you want to apply) is to convince people they'll save some money in the process. Bottom line, baby.

Check out Gail's new doc Another Inconvenient Truth - A presentation you can download. Short and sweet, graphs of production declines and the basics of less oil over time; let the reader draw their own conclusions. Nothing about starving yuppies chewing the leather on their seatbelts of their SUVs to survive.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'I') started the other thread mostly out of curiosity why the cornies weren't showing up purely by random, wondering if it were some leading indicator perhaps.

A Mitigation forum would be a great addition, I think. The posters at TOD rarely espouse anything based around unproven tech, distinguishing them from Cornucopians; it's inaccurate to lump them together. Giving them the invite to contribute to a specific forum would breath some new life into the site, albeit they are very busy over there in the first place.

That's where I think we should be going.

[Ferretlover]

Generally speaking:
If newbies get here, good.
If the threads confuse them, good.
If they want to find out what is really happening, let them read everything and make up their own minds.
Spoonfeeding them would be no different than what our government and MSM are doing.
Let them figure out the different proposed scenarios for our future and where they fit in-it will help them to understand what is going on.
Let them learn how to think again.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'M')ostly what concerns me I guess is people who might be able to at least understand and spread the word coming by here and reading stories of mass die-off before December, and thinking "they're a bunch of damn nuts" and thus tossing the baby with the bathwater. I think Thuja's got a good point. I think it would be helpful to create a "doomer fantasy" or "doomer reality" forum, and let the ultra-uber-doomers post away about the apocalypse, and keep the rest of the forums more on-topic so that curious people who stumble in here don't run away shrieking in horror.

Even if you subscribe to the idea that we're all SOL anyway, what could possibly be the harm in disseminating information to others, so that they might actually try to make a difference? For as much as the - doomer might say so, I seriously doubt most people here want to see Mad max zombie hordes wreaking havoc on their abandoned towns...who would keep the internet servers running?

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'G')enerally speaking:
If newbies get here, good.
If the threads confuse them, good.
If they want to find out what is really happening, let them read everything and make up their own minds.
Spoonfeeding them would be no different than what our government and MSM are doing.
Let them figure out the different proposed scenarios for our future and where they fit in-it will help them to understand what is going on.
Let them learn how to think again.

[kadoomsoon]

Well, there it is, then. Nice post, and you haven't given up hope either and you know the score. Kind of like the Mariners in the 7th inning and they are down 3 to 28.

now to JR:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jupiters_release', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')All I am saying is that this site seems to have lost a bit of its way...what is it for? What's the purpose here?

[thuja]

Yes it is nice to talk to friends who understand...and I appreciate that part of this forum. And please understand...I am not talking about watering down the truth...

I think this site served a really important purpose up to about 6 months ago- the main thrust of the place was to hash out the argument between cornucopians and doomers. The Doomers won...there will be no techno-fix. The cornuopians by and large fled.

But now- i see the site meandering. It has come somewhat masturbaatory- returning to the harsh refrain of doom and gloom sans useful thread topics. Much of the useful information is found in old threads. How many people do you honestly think are going to pore through old threads to find that nugget of wisdom? A few perhaps...

So whither PO.com...is it jumping the shark now that we have hit the peak? Or does it still serve a useful purpose?

[kadoomsoon]

I come here for funny comments and to see how close we are to various changes in my life, the sense of the economic event is a bit farther now.
(All is intertied) oil/economy/politics. But the danger is the discovery that there are plans by TPTB to actually cut off or damage info to us, and this is the most interesting thing "I discovered here, peak oil is a minor point. But to continue in this thread would need a new site called peak gov

If Aaron would start a second site on his servers this important issue, which is more imminent (by a few months) than peak oil all these peole would go to the sister site.
and leave this clear.

But you are right, this site should go to peak oil and stay there, the ones who already know about it need a different site just as well run as this to go for the
economy
political outfall
police state.

then move all these threads from here to over there.

This will eliminate the doomer off topic issues and give a well made site for this, with a link conecting both.
that is what I think

I mean I believe peak oil but there is nothing to do exept wait that one out, give us a peak gov site.

if not then maybe we can tone it down a bit and not be so blunt... i dunno, but the blunt guys I really appreciate reading...

as aaron wishes. I am just happy for able to read this informative site/

need a separate site fdevoted to doomer peak

hey

www.peakofdoom.com something like that

[Iaato]

I totally agree with you, Thuja, that this forum has reached a watershed. Both this site and TOD have. TOD is still focused mainly on charting our progress in a left-brain fashion down the slope, while this site has a more right brain flavor, but is also bent on delineating the slope of the curve. I prefer the right brain approach, because I also come to this site seeking emotional support for this period of great change.

Making preps is not as much fun as surfing the curl of change, and the chaos that results is hard to sort through. Being stuck in the foamy churn once the curl has broken, or even the backwash, can be downright unpleasant. And a lot of making preps is going to be watchful waiting, looking for direction. That is part of the reason that it feels like we're on a plateau or watershed--because we are. The place I do see a lot of movement is in the American economy. That's why I continue to read/post on the housing collapse, which is the impetus for all of that.

That said, the headings on various forums could probably use some condensation/expansion that reflect the changing times. Giving prep-making only one forum out of about 15 makes a statement about what our focus is here. The orientation of the group will not change until the prioritization is refocused through the organization of the website (sorry, Aaron!). It's clear that time is moving on, and there is a sea change in the mood of the world about peak oil. People are starting to get it. We don't need to be a light in the darkness anymore. We need to resort our niche as leaders in how to descend gracefully.