[Plantagenet]

Ukraine reburies bodies found in mass graves of people murdered
and dumped by the communists

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7065913.stm

[max_power29]

I'm not sure that feudalism will prevail again because you cannot uninvent stuff, specifically the crossbow, longbow, and zipgun/musket, as well as non-weapon sources of power such as the printing press.

I hope for tribalism.

[eastbay]

And just today we all read the US has killed another 100 Afghan Muslims. All poor villagers defending their country against invasion. Probably left them in the dirt where they were murdered too.

Every day the US increases it's horrors upon poor Muslim nations. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands killed in this decade alone all for the expansion of capital resources. To feed the capitalist beast. It will soon eat itself.

Feudalism? Here and there it'll arise, as will most other imaginable human organizational constructs. I certainly wouldn't want to participate in it, unless the choice was starvation.

Funny you should mention the printing press. I can see it eventually getting uninvented as time passes. Any North American companies still making them for small single sheets? Will they exist in 100 years? When mass movement of goods ceases how will they be transported and at what cost? Parts? And paper and ink too.

[jboogy]

How about "designated smartass " for me Aaron ? I'm not crazy about crude anything under my name , it just sounds so ......crude.

[eastbay]

jbooby, relax my man, just keep hammering away at your keyboard because at 1,000 posts you change into something else... forgot what it was though.

[jboogy]

Yeah great , so I'll be a light and sweet but crude booger at 1000 ..... I just gagged.

[max_power29]

did you know the communist party in Cuba inmmediately banned the saxaphone for being a capitalist/imperialist instrument? The communists are asshat a-hole control freaks. They want to control every little aspect of your lives and thats the bottom line.

[eastbay]

Now Max, that is just silly. Who told you that anyhow?

[MrBill]

I don't know about labels per se, but it seems like most communist countries feel compelled to stop their own people from leaving versus say, the EU or USA, that has to stop people from illegally entering in search of a better life.

Ain't too many Eastern Europeans that I personally know that wish they were still Soviet. But I do know a lot of Russians that left as soon as they could. We have 25.000 of them living in Limassol alone.

True there are a lot of Central Asians that move to Moscow to work, but Moscow is not Russia and Russia is not Moscow. Russia is still a pretty poor place that is recovering from the economic mismanagment of communism. But minting Oligarchs, billionaires by any other name, certainly is not helping your average Russian either. It is still run as an organized kleptocracy, so it is no longer Soviet socialism nor is it truly a market economy either.

China only started to pull itself out of decades of economic mismanagement and poverty once it embraced market economy policies. India is finally starting to drop its socialist meddling in the economy that in any case only benefited a few well-connected families like those that run Tata. We can see the results as they join the global economy.

What about N. Korea and S. Korea? Could the economic outcomes be any more diverse? What more proof do you need?

You can believe anything you like, but I will not be moving to Cuba any time soon. I can buy my own rum and I already live on an island. Sorry Pinko! ; - )

However, if we ever do return to communism then can I please have the large apartment in the center of the city, a good job, foreign travel and access to the hard currency stores? Thanks!

[eastbay]

Yes, stop them from leaving. I have no problem with that.

This is exactly why I believe the USA should FORCE Mexico to become communist. This way the Mexicans will build and guard the fence themselves.

It would solve quite a few economic problems as well as social. Mexico's domestic oil consumption would decrease leaving more for the rest of us. That #1. This plan would be in America's best interest.

[eastbay]

China only started to pull itself out of decades of economic mismanagement and poverty once it embraced market economy policies. India is finally starting to drop its socialist meddling in the economy that in any case only benefited a few well-connected families like those that run Tata. We can see the results as they join the global economy.

MrBill, excellent observations. However, for Russia, India, and China, the deep poverty experienced by the vast overwhelming majority of people will be largely unaffected by recent changes. I think we all know this already, but I'll point it out anyhow.

It's also fascinating to ponder what the world would now be like if communism/ socialism (I use the terms as synonyms) had not taken hold in these huge populous nations.

Would their economies have grown far faster and larger? Probably yes.

Would private auto use and all the other trappings of a fossil fuel burning advanced economy have arisen? Probably yes.

Would this have resulted in humanity reaching PO far sooner? Probably yes.

What year would PO have been reached if these three economic powerhouses burned oil like the USA did over the past 90 years. 1985? 1990? 1991?

It's likely that by skipping the communist era the world's population would have begun its decline by now. Oil, if available at any price, would by now be many hundreds of dollars/ bbl. Food, fuel, and fertilizer shortages as well as the resulting starvation would be far more advanced than they now are and widespread resource wars would have long ago been ignited. Basically, without the appearance of communism the four horsemen Simmons speaks of would have likely made their appearances long ago.

[smiley]

What I find funny is that many posts on this forum could be literal transcripts from Das Kapital. People here share the same anger over the influence of Big Corporations on society.

Yet when the term socialism or communism pops up, the immediate response is one of, well, almost hate. Perhaps McCarty did his work a bit too well.

As a whole Communism does not work, I think history proves that very well. But when you read the papers from Marx and Engels and the like, you will see that much of their theories actually make sense.

And some elements actually do work. And countries like Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Germany etc. show that a hybrid capitalist-socialist system can deliver economic growth as well as personal freedom and social security. Not that these countries are perfect, far from it, but they do show that there are workable alternatives to simple capitalism.

So why limit the options with regards to communism and capitalim to simply pro and against?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'W')hat I find funny is that many posts on this forum could be literal transcripts from Das Kapital. People here share the same anger over the influence of Big Corporations on society.

Yet when the term socialism or communism pops up, the immediate response is one of, well, almost hate. Perhaps McCarty did his work a bit too well.

As a whole Communism does not work, I think history proves that very well. But when you read the papers from Marx and Engels and the like, you will see that much of their theories actually make sense.

And some elements actually do work. And countries like Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Germany etc. show that a hybrid capitalist-socialist system can deliver economic growth as well as personal freedom and social security. Not that these countries are perfect, far from it, but they do show that there are workable alternatives to simple capitalism.

So why limit the options with regards to communism and capitalim to simply pro and against?

[jboogy]

One need merely examine history to learn all one needs to know about the pro's and con's of capitalism versus communism. Unfettered unregulated capitalism inevitably leads to a form of quasi- communism , the corporations merge with the government to form what is in a communist country the central beaurocracy. We in the U.S. are devolving into a situation similar to where the USSR and their satellites were and to a large extent still are . Middle class being stripped of savings , rights and standard of living . The elite and the moneyed are reaping the lion's share of the wealth , just like Russia . This country will spend about half the discretionary spending part of the budget on defense and/or war , instead of average people receiving the state's tax revenue in the form of health care and other social programs , ( like in a socialist country ) defense contractors recieve this welfare .The average american's gains in wealth and standard of living occured after the depression when the government stepped in to heavily regulate corporations and diverted a large portion of their tax revenue into creating and financing social programs . Regulated controlled capitalism(socialist capitalism) has proven to be the best model. If you examine the countries with the highest average standard of living , ( Nordic countries ) they may be termed capitalist economies but they are in fact heavily socialist . We here in the U.S. were to be the shining example of what a superior system totally free-market capitalism would be ,...... the U.S. is on the brink of a complete economic meltdown , what happened in 1929 after 50 years of capitalist robber barons armed with a compliant federal government and the growth and productivity of the industrial revolution ?CRASH!!! ----Totally free trade and markets eventually just replace the central planning beaurocracy of a communist country with a mixture of corporate executives and career politicians.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')when the term socialism or communism pops up, the immediate response is one of, well, almost hate.

[eastbay]

jboogy, there are pros and con's to just about everything.

But let's just take one quick look at what joining the oil age has done to just one nation: China.

They essentially abandoned communism about 25 years ago, as most would agree. It took their experiment with the free market a few years to ignite but look at them now! Huge airports and freeways wth more under construction. Millions of cars added each year, 40% of the worlds construction... coal-burning electricity generating plants constantly being built to light tens of thousands of new gleaming steel and glass towers. Their fossil-fuel burning list is impressive and it's all due to their embrace of capitalism. Everyone agrees with this. And where will it lead them? Well, if they had remained on their previous slow-growth plans they would today still be sitting on plentiful oil reserves. No need to import anything. In a few years, after the PO crash, China would have been among a few safe nations remaining on earth with many decades of fossil fuel reserves intact.

But they made a conscious decision to embrace humanities final disaster; capitalism. This fateful decision will lead them to complete ruin. Most readers here would agree with this too. China will be completely destroyed in a few years as both their foreign and domestic oil and coal supplies quickly dry up.

If they had stayed with their well- established communist ideals they would have stood an excellent chance to have averted much of the Great Disaster which will soon be clobbering away at the rest of us. But having embraced capitalism, they now they stand as much chance of mitigating the scope of this disaster as most of the rest of the capitalist World. Zero chance.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')when the term socialism or communism pops up, the immediate response is one of, well, almost hate.

[MrBill]

threadbear wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd that is the main reason I left the country 5 years ago. The U.S is about to confront it's shadow, on it's own streets, and it's not going to be pretty.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he history of the U.S, is sanitized, while the Communist countries are demonized.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he history of the U.S, is sanitized, while the Communist countries are demonized.