[PenultimateManStanding]

threadbear, I've noticed that you reject communism while you castigate the American Corporate crimes. I can appreciate your measured response to the evil conditions of the world. I would encourage eastbay to do the same.

[Plantagenet]

I don't see much difference between the 20th century records of the Nazi Party and the Communist Party. Both parties have histories of totalitarianism, mass murder, cults of personality built around the leader, destruction of human rights, theft of property, and genocide with the death toll of communism being much greater then that due to Nazism.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') don't see much difference between the 20th century records of the Nazi Party and the Communist Party. Both parties have histories of totalitarianism, mass murder, cults of personality built around the leader, destruction of human rights, theft of property, and genocide with the death toll of communism being much greater then that due to Nazism.

[Fredrik]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'W')e might not massacre our own people, but we do flood the world with our weapons and we are directly responsible for a lot of people starving by our embargo's.

[eastbay]

Your list of wars isn't any more exceptional than the usual course of history, thus so what? In defense of Stalin and Mao I'd say the had access to energy and infrastructure that allowed them to commit atrocity on a scale that wasn't available to previous despots - which is what they were, not leaders of the Party. Same is true of the brutality of modern war itself, of course. Horror can scale upward, great.

This could very well be the case Dude. Those in power can and will do whatever it takes to maintain their system. Give the US a bit more time and we'll see how the bodies stack up. Hopefuly a more humane system replaces it after the dust settles. I'm hoping for a post-crash system with a more equitable distribution of resources. Socialism/ communism will hopefully prevail.

Threadbear,

I'm really not sure. It could have been the Vietnam War combined with the great disparity between rich and poor which, by the way, has become incredibly more severe in the decades since. There is no sane defense for such a system.

PMS,

If I've written an unkind remark regarding anyone here I certainly apologize. I just scanned a quick review of this thread and must have missed whatever it was that upsets you so much. Please anyone, bring the passage to my attention and I'll delete it and apologize to whomever it was directed. Ya just can't please everyone, as they say, especially in political discussions.

Last week I discovered that the beans I bought at the supermarket were coming from Ethiopia.

Smiley,

Isn't it maddening when that happens? I've had that same experience. I really try to buy local made things, but we all miss once in awhile. A few months ago I found a glass jar of pickles made in India sitting in our fridge. Tens of millions there are hungry all the time.

[PenultimateManStanding]

eastbay, My remarks remain as they stand.

[eastbay]

Can't disagree with that. I just dislike it when the indisputable crimes of one system are downplayed or trivialized while screaming loud about the equally indisputable crimes of the other side.

Well said fredrik, there's plenty of dirt to go around. Power hungry managers of each political system have certainly abused their responsibilities.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'G')ive the US a bit more time and we'll see how the bodies stack up. Hopefuly a more humane system replaces it after the dust settles. I'm hoping for a post-crash system with a more equitable distribution of resources. Socialism/ communism will hopefully prevail.

[kadoomsoon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') don't see much difference between the 20th century records of the Nazi Party and the Communist Party. Both parties have histories of totalitarianism, mass murder, cults of personality built around the leader, destruction of human rights, theft of property, and genocide with the death toll of communism being much greater then that due to Nazism.

[kadoomsoon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'G')ive the US a bit more time and we'll see how the bodies stack up. Hopefuly a more humane system replaces it after the dust settles. I'm hoping for a post-crash system with a more equitable distribution of resources. Socialism/ communism will hopefully prevail.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kadoomsoon', 'U')m, by the way, Hitler was a member of the skull and bones society. Yep, the same one.

[eastbay]

Discussions about what system was best during humanities brief fling at industrialization will be rendered moot as the decline in energy and basic resources fully matures. Capitalism and communism are both features of our industrial age which allowed capital formation to occur. After the Industrial Age passes in the coming decades (not centuries) these two terms will found in academic discussions only.

But until then society will have to structure itself somehow and the only choice is capitalism featuring mass poverty for the majority and great wealth for the few, or socialism striving for common good.

As areas become off-limits to capital expansion ( we see this now) we'll undoubtedly experience wars and horror far outstripping what the 20th Century offered as the we battle over the ever-dwindling remains of the Industrial Age.

The development of this epic event will be fascinating.

[cowteat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'W')e might not massacre our own people, but we do flood the world with our weapons and we are directly responsible for a lot of people starving by our embargo's.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 't')he only choice is capitalism featuring mass poverty for the majority and great wealth for the few, or socialism striving for common good.

[cowteat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 't')he only choice is capitalism featuring mass poverty for the majority and great wealth for the few, or socialism striving for common good.

[cowteat]

But
then
there
was
peak
oil.

they are all going to fail before their goal is reached.
What Irony. Who says there is no God?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cowteat', 's')oon we will all be serfs again.

[Plantagenet]

Snip of Che's hair sells for $119,000 at auction

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7062274.stm

There was only one bid.

I wonder what the new owner of the hair will do with it?

[lateStarter]

Perhaps, the one thing we can all agree to here is:

The leading cause of death, is death by government. In whatever shape, form or fashion. Call it what you want, but any form has always seemed to lead to exploitation, class-divisions (haves vs have-nots), conflict, etc.

Can someone cite an exception in all of recorded history that provides an exception to the rule? In other words, what is or has been the most benevolent form of gov't known to man? Maybe, we haven't seen it yet...

[Plantagenet]

The 20th century totalitarian states created by the communists, nazis, and fascists are the greatest mass murderers in human history.

mass murders by totalitarian governments