[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', '
')
How Portland got tagged as such an eco-friendly greener-than-thou city is hard to understand. Maybe it's because of all the PO Google hits, or all the hybrids, or because it rains so much and things look 'green' all the time. It has little to do with results and preparation.

[eastbay]

...its mass transit, urban growth boundary, green buildings, interlinking bike paths, streetcars, etc etc. There is a reason it has a "Green" image... because compared to most cities in the US..it deserves it.

It's going to take a whole lot more than an urban growth line (abused, especially in the south and west) mass transit and bike paths to allow a city to call itself, 'green'. As a regular bicyclist I can say first-hand how dangerous biking is around here. And MAX, ever ride MAX from the river into Gresham at night? Now 'that's dangerous!.

Oh yes, green buildings? How many are truly 'green'. Most construction is the same old square box style requiring impressive amounts of energy for heating and lighting. This is not 'green.' Most recent city and suburb residential construction, such as the many apartments, condo's, and row-houses aren't even designed to allow passive solar heating thru large south facing windows. Newly developed property usually consists of construction, driveway, and tiny slivers of grass and shrubbery. We see them everywhere, along Stark, along Division... take a look at Hillsboro, or Gresham! It's like that everywhere. Now as with many cities these days, there are a few costly headline grabbing mini-mansion housing projects calling themselves 'green', but they definitely aren't. Energy efficient mini-mansions costing $500,000 or more in this town are seriously abusing the term, 'green.' It's an incredibly overused term that's lately lost it's meaning; especially around here.

It's a huge exaggeration for Portland to call itself 'green.' Other than the rain, it's basically no 'greener' than most other US cities. But some people around here are quite 'greener-than-thou', I'll grant you that.

[thuja]

Hillsboro and Gresham are separate incorported cities- they are not Portland.

But if you are talking about our suburbs- then yes...like every other city, we have suburban blight, faux "green" buidling etc.

But again- I ask you to name the other cities that have an urban growth boundary, a strong mass transit system, hundreds of miles of dedicated bike lanes, a commitment to "Green" retrofitting homes using tax incentives and city programs, year round local farmers markets and 33 citywide markets and counting (I just developed the newest one), a city that is powered more than half by hydropower, extensive programs for composting, recycling and reusing. Hell theres even a place called the rebuilding center where you can build your house out of old home remnants- extremely popular.

As soon as you can name me those cities, I'll agree with you that Portland shouldn't have a "Green" reputation.

[Ferretlover]

Just curious-does Portland have an underground city as Seattle does?
Always wanted to take the tour, when I lived there, but never got around to it.

[eastbay]

The general metro area here has around 2.5 million people; 560,000 of whom reside in Portland. Portland, with 20 to 25% of the metro population, seems to be trying, at least on an official level, to begin the process. I read the PO resolution. I'm aware of recent the 50% reduction in hydrocarbon vote. I'm also aware of the $5 billion (initial)proposal for the replacement I-5 bridge. All I'm saying is it will take a whole lot more than typewritten words to come even close to surviving what's coming at us.

I rarely cross 162nd, but on the few times I've crossed over, the view doesn't seem to change much from there west to the river. It's lots of concrete and asphalt, apartments and condo's (mostly pointing the wrong way), SUV's, and older homes mixed in with a few newer and mostly much-too-large houses, and tiny slivers of grass. Very few gardens, for example.

'Green?' Not yet. For crying out loud, it's not even close.

Taking steps toward 'green?' Maybe. It certainly starts with words and declarations. Portland has issued plenty of those.

Ahead of other US cities? Words ahead. But words and declarations can come fast. And they will as other cities catch on.

"Green', and 'sustainable' have become the two most abused and mis-applied words used these days. Especially around here.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')All I'm saying is it will take a whole lot more than typewritten words to come even close to surviving what's coming at us.



'Green?' Not yet. For crying out loud, it's not even close.

Taking steps toward 'green?' Maybe. It certainly starts with words and declarations. Portland has issued plenty of those.

Ahead of other US cities? Words ahead. But words and declarations can come fast. And they will as other cities catch on.

"Green', and 'sustainable' have become the two most abused and mis-applied words used these days. Especially around here.

[eastbay]

Why do you continue asking me to name other cities? This thread is about Portland and Seattle being immune from hard times, and, I can't speak for Seattle, but Portland most definitely isn't, no matter how sanctimonious-sounding and 'sustainable' it claims to be. The only thing 'sustainable' is the repeated misuse of the word 'green.'

Ok, I'll hand it to you and split the difference. Portland isn't anywhere close to 'green', but it definitely is, 'greener-than-thou.'

... sheeesh, no wonder people avoid community meetings.

[thuja]

Eastbay- the reason the city council passed a Peak Oil resolution mandating a 50 % cut in fossil fuels is because they see what's on the horizon. They are not spouting platitudes. They know that things have to change...and fast. How could you think that Portlanders believe we are immune from hard times?

Because we are facing hard times, we are busy creating the infrastructure to prepare for a new way of living. Politicians and citizens alike are working on designing walkable neighborhoods (new urbanism), density, local food production, local energy, non-oil based transit in the form of the MAX, biking and walking. We are working on retrofitting homes to be as energy efficient as possible. This is not about being immune...this is about preparing for radical changes.

Will it be enough? Of course not. But do you seriosuly think we should not make the effort? That we should emulate Las Vegas or Phoenix in our planning? Do you really think that all this work is just hype and wordgames?

[eastbay]

How could you think that Portlanders believe we are immune from hard times?

I never said that.

But do you seriosuly think we should not make the effort?

I never said that.

That we should emulate Las Vegas or Phoenix in our planning?

I never said that.

Do you really think that all this work is just hype and wordgames?

I never said that either.

This is a perfect example of we avoid meeting with others who see what's coming. I couldn't imagine putting up with this nonsense face to face.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', ' ')How could you think that Portlanders believe we are immune from hard times?

I never said that.

[eastbay]

Putting words into peoples mouths isn't nice at all. In fact, it's downright unneighborly. But it's ok. Many do this. You will be more productive in your efforts when it fades away.

Eastbay, I know you have a problem with Portland, but my question is...why?


I never said or implied that. Not even close.



You have called the citizens sanctimonious, Greener-than-thou, hyping a faux Green with efforts that are words and no action.

I never said that either. I'm not calling the citizens anything at all. I said abuse of terms makes those who use them 'sanctimonious-sounding.' Huge difference.


What is making you ticked off about the way Portland is doing things?

I didn't suggest that either. What Portland is doing is just fine. But those helping prepare others for What's Coming shouldn't boast or puff their efforts. Just don't exaggerate. Calling these efforts 'green' and 'sustainable' is complete nonsense. And you're the one using dark font.


Since you are knowledgable about Peak OIl, shouldn't you be applauding any effort that your neighbors are making?

Thanks. I'm no expert, but I'm fairly knowledgeable about PO and speak about it often to whomever will listen. Our family's life direction is geared to taking on Our Common Disaster. Few believe it's coming, but I still plug away at them. I encourage as much as I can, and applaud where it's due, but at least in our part of East County, few listen. Fewer still do anything to prepare. Very few.

Again, this senseless exaggeration you are doing here on this thread is exactly why I'm staying away from any PO-related orgs. To actually sit at a table listening to people juicing up their (otherwise noble) efforts and being untruthful isn't my cup of tea.

[thuja]

Eastbay I am not putting words in your mouth...here is what you are saying...

"It's a huge exaggeration for Portland to call itself 'green.' Other than the rain, it's basically no 'greener' than most other US cities. But some people around here are quite 'greener-than-thou', I'll grant you that."

"How Portland got tagged as such an eco-friendly greener-than-thou city is hard to understand. Maybe it's because of all the PO Google hits, or all the hybrids, or because it rains so much and things look 'green' all the time. It has little to do with results and preparation."

"This thread is about Portland and Seattle being immune from hard times, and, I can't speak for Seattle, but Portland most definitely isn't, no matter how sanctimonious-sounding and 'sustainable' it claims to be. "

I haven't put words in your mouth or been unneighborly- I am simply repsonding to what you are saying. I think these next sentences are the crux of what I am hearing...


"What Portland is doing is just fine. But those helping prepare others for What's Coming shouldn't boast or puff their efforts. Just don't exaggerate. Calling these efforts 'green' and 'sustainable' is complete nonsense. And you're the one using dark font."

You seem to have a problem with Portland being labeled "Green" or working towrsds "sustainability." Portland has been actively and successfully protecting farmland, watersheds, and promoting local energy and foods, incentivizing making home energy use effciient, developing non-fossil fuel based transportation and promoting biking and walking. These are all deemded "Green" by most folks. You say calling Portland's efforts Green as "complete nonsense".

Again- I am not trying to put words in your mouth but again I am just responding to you when you say things that seem...well..a tad unneighborly.

[Plantagenet]

Portland is a great town and definitely deserves some credit for the efforts they've made to be "greener."

They've made some genuine progress.

1. Portland built a successful "European-style" light rail mass transit system from scratch.

2. Portland is leading the way in using zoning to encourage higher density urban housing and discourage suburban sprawl (they can't stop urban sprawl but at least they've recognized the problem and made an effort to address it.

Both of things reduce CO2 emissions and cut fuel use.

[thuja]

Thanks P-- Yes I thought I was going a tad crazy there and that Portland is on par with any other city in the US.

We are actually just playing catch up with a lot of European cities that have been doing this for a while.

And yeah- we are still going to get hit very hard. No one is immune. But to say that Portland is as Green as any other city and to call our efforts towards sustainability nonsense? And then to deny that he said those things?

I'm baffled.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'J')ust curious-does Portland have an underground city as Seattle does?
Always wanted to take the tour, when I lived there, but never got around to it.

[eastbay]

If you're representative of the folks who are involved in this effort, and I think you may be, you won't be seeing anyone from our family anywhere near any of those meetings. If we want to experience unkindness we'll hop on MAX instead.

As things get harsher and harsher we'll see how 'sustainable' the urban core of yours really is. We know that despite all our efforts where we are is unsustainable and very much so. Remember, MAX, light rail, bio-fuel busses, faux 'green livable' construction, bike trails, and all the rest of the ridiculous 'green' nonsense are inedible.

All these things you proudly write about exist only due to cheap and easy oil and will require more oil to maintain and expand. You shouldn't get too proud or attached to it all. As the oil soon becomes scarce it will all quickly disintegrate. It is clearly delusional to refer to these energy consuming (soon-to-be) relics as 'sustainable' and 'green.'

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')f you're representative of the folks who are involved in this effort, and I think you may be, you won't be seeing anyone from our family anywhere near any of those meetings. If we want to experience unkindness we'll hop on MAX instead.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '
')
If the crops fail and there aren't electric etc. trucks to ship food in any sizeable city will not be a good place to be. Until Portland has something like 75% backyard veggie gardens I wouldn't want to be there when TSHTF, never mind the green buildings buses boundaries MAX. All those veggies aren't going to feed any apartment dwellers or bums, either. You ain't gettin' none of our grain from down here in the Valley neither!

Cut out all that Green Livable hokum, too. Don't need any more of these latte swilling Kalifornians moving here, spurring development, those gawadful boxes that sprouted up like mold on Bull Mountain and elsewhere, the afternoon parking lots on I5 and the Sunset and the Banfield. Stewart Holbrook had the right idea with the James G. Blaine Society, whose mission was to make Oregon as unpalatable to the outside as possible.

True Born Native Son of the Beaver State!

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'W')hat can I say Dude- you live just outside Portland- some would call it a distant suburb. Your town is just as dependent on the Gridbased Industrial eway of life as we are. Don't fool yourself.

[BlisteredWhippet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he source is Mt Hood glaciers and we were about 40 miles from the source. It doesn't take long to get filthy.