[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', '
')1. PO.com is not mainstream media. I greatly enjoy it here due to the honest discussion of cold, brutal facts staring all of us in the face which is 180 degrees from the fairy tale dreamland the talking heads on TV project. To me, it's a breath of fresh air.
3. PO. Com is to me one of the very, very few places I know of where bullsh*t and lies don't prevail.
Wouldn't you agree that there are endless threads here that have wonderful tips and insights on everything such as gardening, trees, positive land development, permaculture, natural soil enrichment, alternative energy production (solar, wind) and so on?
But if one is willing to step out of the box, the options are endless. You know that.
In summary, in this PC world, I enjoy reading posts from folks who call a spade a spade.

[Heineken]

I'd like to add one other point to bshirt's bull's-eye comments. For me personally, a severely negative stance on the world's evolving condition is the honest stance. I am being true to who I am. I could try to be more positive about things, and who knows, maybe it might make me feel better, but I would be being dishonest to who and what I am, and what I feel I have learned about the world and people in my 52 years. And what I have learned is this: It's hopeless. Even if you surround yourself in a nice comfy blanket of goofy optimism, reality will penetrate relatively soon, and spear you.

As the song goes, "Life is a sham unless you can shout out, 'I am who I am'."

[PenultimateManStanding]

I thought you had something really cool going here, Heineken, until you started quoting Neil Diamond. Just pokin' at ya, but Neil Diamond? Old Guy Sings Song Of Desire To 12 Year Old Tell me you don't need a lentil frobotomy if you still enjoy this singer! heh heh.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')What's the benefit though, in repeatedly pointing out the bad stuff, and not the good stuff? That's what I'm trying to get at here, what is the benefit derived from saying "we're screwed!" constantly?

[threadbear]

A lot of happy perky optimists are quite sensitive, and feel easily defeated. Cockeyed optimism is their defence. Noone on these forums meets this description, in my mind. I'm talking about the typical perpetually upbeat person. They shrink from the idea of looming crisis, because it completely deflates their world and their place in it. They're externally referenced and if the externals look weak, they feel weakened.

For some perverse reason, the idea that the world may be going to hell in a hand cart, generally makes me feel stronger, because I think I can get through anything short of thermo-nuclear war. By extension, I feel, all my friends and family are going to get through it too. I hope like hell this is a form of healthy narcissism, or a genuinely positve attitude. If not, I'm one sick puppy!

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I') thought you had something really cool going here, Heineken, until you started quoting Neil Diamond. Just pokin' at ya, but Neil Diamond? Old Guy Sings Song Of Desire To 12 Year Old Tell me you don't need a lentil frobotomy if you still enjoy this singer! heh heh.

[Ludi]

Some really good insights here! Thank you so much. Believe it or not, this thread has made me feel more positive about the board (at least temporarily).


A couple folks pointed out something I think is very important, that both extreme optimism "Everything is just going to get better and better!" and extreme pessimism "We're screwed and there's nothing we can do to change it!" have the exact same result - inaction. So one needs the ability to see problems ("negativity") in a reasonably accurate way in order to take action (a "positive" step).


It's very possible I'm overly sensitive to the "we're screwed and it's hopeless!" posts here on the board, because I have great hopes for this board being an impetus for change and not a reason for people to give up. I think much of the discussion of doom (and especially die-off) could possibly lead visitors to either reject the information altogether, or accept it and give up, rather than taking action toward the ecological paradigm. I wish it were possible to know the effect of the board on those who aren't part of "the choir" so to speak, to know how they react to the unhappy information. (I almost put "how they react to the doom" but I know some people don't like the information they present to be called that).


But, as I say, this problem may simply not exist and the board may actually be extremely successful in causing people to take useful action.

[bshirt]

You're a sweet gal, Ludi. Keep your chin up!

[Pops]

Sorry to be late to the party.

My Pops Psychology take is that folks who think no action on their or anyone elses part can help them, believe little of their actions have up till now and everyone else is in the same boat.

They have been swept along to success or less by the tides and will continue as such and looming problems will only drown them.

My solution is to take criticism of a particular idea as an opportunity for improvement of the idea and criticism of any idea as an opportunity to read the next post.

[OilIsMastery]

Negativity is very important to me. Without the doomers I would never be able to make a dime in the stock market because I would never be able to buy anything cheaply.

Also the constant negativity lets me understand the bear point of view which is valuable wisdom.

[Heineken]

Ludi, as you know, I've been taking many concrete actions in my personal life in response to the converging catastrophes, and many of them have been inspired by things I've been exposed to on PO.com. I've done everything from permanently selling mountains of stocks to taking up worm composting, and everything in-between. Bluebird nest boxes, mushrooms, fruit and nut trees, buying additional land, and more. I've moved a great deal of money around because of this website, and I've taken some significant risks. I've been inspired by people here, and I've tried to inspire others in threads where that stance seems appropriate.

I do all of this even though I know "it's hopeless."

I have a two-track mind on all of this and can fairly easily switch between tracks. I recognize that not everyone can do this, and I regret that some of my commentary may have been depressing or painful to others, particularly newbies.

I know where you're coming from, and I do try to be as realistically positive as possible . . . but, it's a struggle. As I've said elsewhere, the thing that really did it for me was the recent revelations (over the past two years or so) about global warming. I'm a passionate animal lover, so the prospect of mass extinctions sends me close to the edge. I can scarcely get myself to open the lastest issue of "National Geographic" and look at the pictures of all those glorious creatures and places we are losing forever.

Negativity is probably much like depression in that it is anger turned inward (along with chemical imbalances). It's very hard to get a depressed person to change by pointing out to him or her, in a logical way, the unrewarding characteristics of being depressed. The anger is there because there is so much provoking it, and it must find some sort of socially acceptable outlet. Since I can't go and kick Bush et al.'s teeth in, I have to kick in my own (while also, yes, putting lots of energy into my country places). Crazy, isn't it.

[Ludi]

Yeah, I think I understand you Heineken. Except, I guess, I don't think I "know it's hopeless." I don't know anything in that sense, I can't know the future....

[Heineken]

It depends on how "hopeless" is defined. With respect to the particular set of values I hold dear, the situation appears hopeless. Obviously, the future can never literally be known in advance, but reasonable and often quite accurate projections can be made based on current data.

As I see it, a big part of the story is already over. Maybe I'm not even talking about the future, but about the now.

[Ludi]

Oh that's sad. ...I see the future (and even now) as an opportunity to develop perhaps different and more useful values. These need not be "negative" values of selfishness, but could have the potential of being "positive" values of mutual support and concern for all life. In fact, I think our very survival as individuals and as a species depends on such values, and if there is to be a future, it will (must) contain those values.

[Heineken]

Both our viewpoints are valid, Ludi.

I've learned to live with sadness and pain in general and the failure of my life in particular. I'm quite the stoic, so I have relatively little need to insulate myself emotionally.

[Ludi]

Obviously I'm no stoic!

I won't worry about you so much, Heineken. You don't look like a failure to me, but then, I don't know you much at all...

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')eah, I think I understand you Heineken. Except, I guess, I don't think I "know it's hopeless." I don't know anything in that sense, I can't know the future....

[Ludi]

Geez, JP, what the heck was that about?

I'm glad you are personally looking forward to living in the third world. I'm not looking forward to it, because I'll probably be dead, and not of old age.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'G')eez, JP, what the heck was that about?

I'm glad you are personally looking forward to living in the third world. I'm not looking forward to it, because I'll probably be dead, and not of old age.

[Ludi]

Not to be too negative or anything, but what are the chances good medical care will arrive in a third world United States? I have my worries.....