[Heineken]

bshirt, the US government is already in the "freedom" business---our imperialistic meddling planetwide, which vastly reduces the standard of living in this country in exchange for very dubious benefits. Something like 750 or 800 US military bases girdle the globe, many equipped with indoor swimming pools and tennis courts. More being built all the time. A lot of our $10 trillion national debt can be chalked up to insane military spending and of course those $200 toilet seats.

I certainly agree that the government is inherently a poor manager, but as long as we have a government and are paying taxes, we should get something tangible in return for our taxes that benefits individuals directly and meaningfully. Near or at the top of that list I would put health care.

Our private-insurance system has failed and deserves to die. Something like 50 million people (an intensely politically manipulated number that is probably far higher), including many children, have no coverage whatsoever. gg3 and others have described how the scam works better than I can.

I'm one of those 50 million. The private system offers me NOTHING. I'm 52, semiretired, in decent health, and of moderate means, but there's nothing out there worth having that I can afford, even if I can get the insurance companies to call me back. I did have one quote of over $500 a month, with high deductables. Not worth it. I also heard that when guys like me make a claim, the insurance company mobilizes teams of investigators to come up with the tiniest reason for rejecting your claim. If they pay the claim they jack up your rates.

The government could do no worse a job than the private sector when it comes to health care, and at least I'd have some coverage. For that reason, I'd move to Canada right now if they'd have me.

I'm a veteran and the son of a disabled vet with two Bronze Stars, I worked as a health care and science editor and paid my taxes for almost three decades, but if I get sick tomorrow I don't even qualify for care in this goddamned country.

[wisconsin_cur]

1. I think we will find a lot of uses for those aging back-to-the-landers. They may have left the farm a few decades ago but they still have more experience than many others. The "value" of a person will be their experience and ability to expend energy not necessarily their age.

2. I think what we will see is a re-distribution of "success." While the orthopedic surgeon experiences a lot of "success" now it will take him a few years of experience to catch up with the hillbilly who already knows basic animal care and has, perhaps, had the experience of a small garden for many years. In the long run the ethic and skills that made the surgeon a surgeon will come in handy (drive, attention to detail etc) but he will need to survive that transition period without becoming a migrant worker or waking up dead or whatever.

3. I will welcome the transition in work though not necessarily the insecurity. I will have more of a chance to thrive or fail. I will have the opportunity to be of good use to the community or to starve. That will be interesting none the less... a whole lot more interesting than an evening at the casino!

[bshirt]

I hear ya, Heineken.

I too am a Vietnam vet and my father a Korean vet. I worked on the hamster wheel over 30 years and again, like you, don't have squat for health insurance. .

Imo, the American dream is just one big f*cking lie.

But to turn over "everything" in health care to the "govn" makes me shudder. I'd honestly rather deal with the mafia than those pukes. At least some of those guys, somewhere, have the tiniest shread of honor.

I wouldn't argue one second with you about the current state of affairs regarding health care in the US. It's disgusting to the extreme. But if it could somehow be made worse, they're the perfect enabler.

Somehow, there has to be a better solution. I wish I was smart enough to figure that out.

[Byron100]

While I would love to have a "single payer" system, I kinda have to agree with bshirt's opinion that the gov't would screw things up even worse than they are now, which is why we have yet to see widespread public support in the USA to adopt a Canadian / European-style health care system.

But the real problem, IMO, is that the government is virtually owned by the special interests....us "little guys" tend to get the shaft as the big corporate types have our elected representatives on puppet strings. I cannot fathom the kinds of games the medical industry would play with the government should we go to national care...and the fraud too...just take a look at the rampant Medicare fraud we have going on today.

Because of this, I'm fully prepared to go without medical care by the time I reach 50...and play my own doctor the best way I can. Hopefully there will still be private clinics around that will be able to treat injuries and run-of-the-mill infections at reasonable cost for cash-payers, like the "urgent care" clinic that's within walking distance of where I live now...even now, those guys give a huge discount if you pay with Benjamins as opposed to filing a claim on health insurance (which would prolly get denied for not being a "valid service provider.")

But for those of you who advocate a free-market solution to health care, the only way that's going to work is to decouple health insurance from employment, as well eliminating Medicare and Medicaid...forcing everyone to either pay cash for medical services, or buy insurance on the open market like auto / homeowner's insurance. The problem with that, of course, anyone with chronic, incurable conditions would basically be uninsurable, and left out in the cold, so to speak. I don't think we can, as a society, can treat people in such a callous manner, when it's no fault of their own...

And yes, I do agree with the premise that the so-called American Dream is a total lie...and boy, will I be glad when the masses finally catch on to this, too. And when they do, the PTB will have every reason to be afraid...very afraid .

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', 'B')ut to turn over "everything" in health care to the "govn" makes me shudder. I'd honestly rather deal with the mafia than those pukes. At least some of those guys, somewhere, have the tiniest shread of honor.

[Olaf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'b')shirt, the US government is already in the "freedom" business---our imperialistic meddling planetwide, which vastly reduces the standard of living in this country in exchange for very dubious benefits. Something like 750 or 800 US military bases girdle the globe, many equipped with indoor swimming pools and tennis courts. More being built all the time. A lot of our $10 trillion national debt can be chalked up to insane military spending and of course those $200 toilet seats.

I certainly agree that the government is inherently a poor manager, but as long as we have a government and are paying taxes, we should get something tangible in return for our taxes that benefits individuals directly and meaningfully. Near or at the top of that list I would put health care.

Our private-insurance system has failed and deserves to die. Something like 50 million people (an intensely politically manipulated number that is probably far higher), including many children, have no coverage whatsoever. gg3 and others have described how the scam works better than I can.

I'm one of those 50 million. The private system offers me NOTHING. I'm 52, semiretired, in decent health, and of moderate means, but there's nothing out there worth having that I can afford, even if I can get the insurance companies to call me back. I did have one quote of over $500 a month, with high deductables. Not worth it. I also heard that when guys like me make a claim, the insurance company mobilizes teams of investigators to come up with the tiniest reason for rejecting your claim. If they pay the claim they jack up your rates.

The government could do no worse a job than the private sector when it comes to health care, and at least I'd have some coverage. For that reason, I'd move to Canada right now if they'd have me.

I'm a veteran and the son of a disabled vet with two Bronze Stars, I worked as a health care and science editor and paid my taxes for almost three decades, but if I get sick tomorrow I don't even qualify for care in this goddamned country.

[manu]

Better start to plant a herbal garden, watch your diet and dont get sick. As for those of you who are worried about work, there will be plenty of work for food at your Fed Detention Camp. Coming soon.

[darren]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'W')hile I would love to have a "single payer" system, I kinda have to agree with bshirt's opinion that the gov't would screw things up even worse than they are now, which is why we have yet to see widespread public support in the USA to adopt a Canadian / European-style health care system.

[MrBill]

gg3 wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')en points to Heinekin, Olaf, and Byron for catching Mr. Bill's ill-informed item about health insurance.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'Y')ou don't need 3000 acres to make a living farming. The Dervaes family make their living farming about 1/10 of an acre. Small farms are much more productive per land area than large farms, though take more labor. 2 acres in vegetables is about the maximum one person can manage, though I would say that's a bit large, myself.


http://pathtofreedom.com/


Those 3000 acre farms are for growing grain, not a very productive crop per acre.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

The fact that Americans have no national health service AND STILL get taxed anyway is completley shocking.

[Ludi]

Mr Bill, there are many books written about how to make a living from a small farm, written by people who do so, so it'd be kind of silly for me to try to debate it here.

I'm not even sure what the debate is about --- that farming for a living is difficult? No shit.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', 'T')he fact that Americans have no national health service AND STILL get taxed anyway is completley shocking.

[Falconoffury]

Actually, more tax money than ever goes to paying interest on debt. It goes right back to the Fed's coffers.

The health care system in the USA needs deregulation, and a complete restructuring. Patients need options for the old-school, inexpensive natural cures that have been known for centuries. All profit-making companies in health care, including big pharma, would need to be restructured or disbanded. The reason is that the most profit is made by treating the sick, not curing the sick. The most profit is made when people are kept alive just long enough to keep paying for treatment. They want you sick, but alive and obedient.

I stand by the idea that old-school and natural is better than new and patented where treatment options are concerned.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'M')r Bill, there are many books written about how to make a living from a small farm, written by people who do so, so it'd be kind of silly for me to try to debate it here.

I'm not even sure what the debate is about --- that farming for a living is difficult? No shit.