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How to Save Civilization

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How to Save Civilization

Unread postby roccman » Sat 15 Sep 2007, 14:26:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Civilization" is often defined like this: "Thousands of years ago, humans slept in caves, communicated with crude grunting noises, were stalked by wolves and saber-toothed tigers, lived in a state of constant scarcity and extreme stress, and died of old age at 30 if we weren't killed in tribal warfare. Life was 'nasty, brutish, and short' and nature was 'red in tooth and claw.' Then, through a series of innovations, we started living better and better, a trend which continues to this day and will continue on into the future without limit, if only we can save civilization from being destroyed by 'terrorism' or climate change or some other external threat."

This story is so wrong that you could call it a strawman if it wasn't so popular.




$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n response, the primitivist strawman goes like this: "For a million years, humans lived in Eden, in peaceful, egalitarian, nature-based societies. We could recognize thousands of species and the relations between them, and with this direct grounding in ecology, we knew to keep population stable and not deplete the land, so we always had plenty to eat, and spent only a few hours a day in meaningful productive activity, and the rest of the time relaxed and played. Then, around 10,000 years ago, through a million-to-one fluke, someone invented grain agriculture -- we started forcing food from the Earth instead of taking what it gave. Because grains feed opiate receptors in the brain, we didn't stop. Because grains are loaded in calories and low in other nutrients, we suffered from deficiency diseases and also exploding population. We became crowded and competitive, and put our spare energy into warfare, so agriculturalists could conquer land from foragers, massacre them, cut down the trees, and plow fields to grow more grains to make more people to require more land and resources -- a vicious cycle of cancerous growth that continues to this day, but will eventually run out of room to take without giving, and collapse, or we'll bring it down ourselves, and then we can go back to being happy forager-hunters."

In broad strokes, this is true.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]If we want to save this particular civilization, it would not be enough to stabilize population and energy consumption. We would also have to abandon economic "growth," and abandon technological "progress" defined in terms of complexity or size or power.


http://ranprieur.com/essays/saveciv.html

Banning all forms of advertising would be a step in this direction.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby mercurygirl » Sat 15 Sep 2007, 16:10:33

Great article and website. I seem to remember browsing it before, but not this particular essay. Thanks.

On another article, $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')hen it says "zombies," just substitute "dead people" or "incapacitated people" or "rioters" or "insurgents" or "you."


:lol:
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 15 Sep 2007, 16:18:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f we want to save this particular civilization, it would not be enough to stabilize population and energy consumption. We would also have to abandon economic "growth," and abandon technological "progress" defined in terms of complexity or size or power.



Except then it would be "this civilization" anymore, it would be something else...


I'm pushing for something else, personally. Lots of somethings, actually, for that robust diversity of nature....
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby halcyon » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 04:37:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Except then it would be "this civilization" anymore, it would be something else...


Why would abandoning current growth/progress paradigms be "not civilization"?

Have you studied all the early civilizations and found out that they had the exact same paradigms we have now?

Or that if you abandon those paradigms, the civilization the crumbles? Or transforms to something else?

I thought as much.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby smiley » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 08:37:39

It boggles the mind why people are looking for outside reasons for population growth, while the real cause is so incredibly simple.

Population growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts. (Death rates and life expectancy are not that terribly important, unless you have a high infancy mortality rate.)

It is as simple as that. If you have on average more than 2 children then you're causing population growth.

The most important factor in the population growth of the past 2000 years has been the church with their lunatic go and multiply policy.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby roccman » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 09:07:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'I')t boggles the mind why people are looking for outside reasons for population growth, while the real cause is so incredibly simple.

Population growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts. (Death rates and life expectancy are not that terribly important, unless you have a high infancy mortality rate.)

It is as simple as that. If you have on average more than 2 children then you're causing population growth.

The most important factor in the population growth of the past 2000 years has been the church with their lunatic go and multiply policy.


I could not disagree more strongly with this.

Technology = the accumulation of energy slaves

Today, for every American there are about 70 energy slaves.

Today, the footprint America leaves on the planet is equivelant to 21 BILLION people.

America is overpopulated....NOT China.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 11:18:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('halcyon', 'W')hy would abandoning current growth/progress paradigms be "not civilization"?



"This civilization."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')r transforms to something else?




You really think it would be the same society/culture we have now? I think we must have very different meaning for "the same" and "different."


This issue seems important to you.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Baldwin » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 13:30:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'I')t boggles the mind why people are looking for outside reasons for population growth, while the real cause is so incredibly simple.

Population growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts. (Death rates and life expectancy are not that terribly important, unless you have a high infancy mortality rate.)

It is as simple as that. If you have on average more than 2 children then you're causing population growth.

The most important factor in the population growth of the past 2000 years has been the church with their lunatic go and multiply policy.


Stop blaming the Church. Having sex (and the resultant pregnancies) has been popular WAY before Roman Catholicism. "The World's Oldest Profession" predates the Church.

Population didn't start to explode until horny, sex-starved WWII GI's and petroleum-based agriculture worked together in tandem.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby 128shot » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 13:35:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'I')t boggles the mind why people are looking for outside reasons for population growth, while the real cause is so incredibly simple.

Population growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts. (Death rates and life expectancy are not that terribly important, unless you have a high infancy mortality rate.)

It is as simple as that. If you have on average more than 2 children then you're causing population growth.

The most important factor in the population growth of the past 2000 years has been the church with their lunatic go and multiply policy.


I could not disagree more strongly with this.

Technology = the accumulation of energy slaves

Today, for every American there are about 70 energy slaves.

Today, the footprint America leaves on the planet is equivelant to 21 BILLION people.

America is overpopulated....NOT China.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

you're really caught up in your own delusion.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby smiley » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 17:20:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')merica is overpopulated....NOT China.


Which of those has a one child policy :P

Of course you do have a point that technology increases the footprint of a particular population. But the definition of overpopulation is based on the equilibrium between available resource base versus the required resource per capita and the population size.

In this equilibrium the required resources are defined as the amount of resources that are needed for survival. Now the American Mc Mansions, Super Underefficient Vehicles etc, contribute to a large footprint, but are not essential for survival, and should not be counted when calculation overpopulation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')top blaming the Church. Having sex (and the resultant pregnancies) has been popular WAY before Roman Catholicism. "The World's Oldest Profession" predates the Church.


It is prostitutes who invented birth control, since a one in a nine month shag's wouldn't earn them a living :-D

But seriously. Strongly christian or muslim countries have a much higher birthrate than other countries. That is undeniable. And you believe that that is not in any way linked to the public advocation of large families? Get real.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 19:33:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'P')opulation growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts.


Learn some basic ecology. Population growth is caused by food surplus. Grain agriculture creates food surplus. Agriculture is considered to be a technological development compared to hunting/gathering, hence, technology in this context leads to population growth.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('halcyon', 'H')ave you studied all the early civilizations and found out that they had the exact same paradigms we have now?


Of course they did, since it is precisely that paradigm that defines "civilization". Civilization is derived from the Latin term civis which means, "citizen" or "townsman". A salient characteristic of civilization is the building of towns and cities. A city, by definition, is a living arrangement that must rely on the importation of resources from beyond its immediate surroundings, and as such, it is unsustainable, therefore civilization is unsustainable.
"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby roccman » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 19:42:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'P')opulation growth is not caused by technology.

It is caused by people having children. It is the amount of offspring that counts.


Learn some basic ecology. Population growth is caused by food surplus. Grain agriculture creates food surplus. Agriculture is considered to be a technological development compared to hunting/gathering, hence, technology in this context leads to population growth.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('halcyon', 'H')ave you studied all the early civilizations and found out that they had the exact same paradigms we have now?


Of course they did, since it is precisely that paradigm that defines "civilization". Civilization is derived from the Latin term civis which means, "citizen" or "townsman". A salient characteristic of civilization is the building of towns and cities. A city, by definition, is a living arrangement that must rely on the importation of resources from beyond its immediate surroundings, and as such, it is unsustainable, therefore civilization is unsustainable.


Well said TWilliam.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby smiley » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 19:45:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')earn some basic ecology. Population growth is caused by food surplus


Sjeez. Learn some basic sexuology. Children are caused by people having intercourse.

If you're looking for the precise details.

babycenter- how babies are made

Of course having a nice candlelight dinner might aid that process, but it certainly doesn't cause it. Thank god my wife doesn't get pregnant each time I have some spare food in my fridge.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 19:50:10

This topic reminds me of the famous remark by Ghandi:


"What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea."


--Mohandas Gandhi
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Offshore » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 19:55:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'B')anning all forms of advertising would be a step in this direction.

Have you considered moving to Nigeria?

http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnL13858176.html
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 20:02:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')earn some basic ecology. Population growth is caused by food surplus


Sjeez. Learn some basic sexuology. Children are caused by people having intercourse.

If you're looking for the precise details.

babycenter- how babies are made

Of course having a nice candlelight dinner might aid that process, but it certainly doesn't cause it. Thank god my wife doesn't get pregnant each time I have some spare food in my fridge.


I'm going to assume, for the sake of this discussion, that you're not actually as dense as this post implies.

Intercourse may cause conception. Whether or not that conception leads to a birth, however, depends on multiple factors, one major one being the overall health of the mother. If she is severely malnourished due to food scarcity (the opposite of food surplus), then there will be a high probability that the fetus will miscarry. If she does manage to carry to full term and deliver, but there is continuing food scarcity, then there will be a high probability that the child will not survive into adulthood, allowing it the opportunity to procreate.

Food surplus leads to population growth.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby mercurygirl » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 21:20:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile our view of ourselves could hardly avoid highlighting our accomplishments in engineering, art, medicine, space travel and the like, in a more dispassionate assessment agriculture would probably displace all other contenders for top billing. Most of the other achievements of humankind have followed from this one. Almost without exception, all people on earth today are sustained by agriculture. With a minute number of exceptions, no other species is a farmer. Essentially all of the arable land in the world is under cultivation. Yet agriculture began just a few thousand years ago, long after the appearance of anatomically modern humans.


From an interesting essay linked to in the OP's posted article.

The origins of agriculture?
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby Novus » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 22:45:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')
I could not disagree more strongly with this.

Technology = the accumulation of energy slaves

Today, for every American there are about 70 energy slaves.

Today, the footprint America leaves on the planet is equivelant to 21 BILLION people.

America is overpopulated....NOT China.


The thing is America doesn't need a dieoff. Someone just needs to take away all those energy slaves.
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby roccman » Sun 16 Sep 2007, 23:30:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', '
')
I could not disagree more strongly with this.

Technology = the accumulation of energy slaves

Today, for every American there are about 70 energy slaves.

Today, the footprint America leaves on the planet is equivelant to 21 BILLION people.

America is overpopulated....NOT China.


The thing is America doesn't need a dieoff. Someone just needs to take away all those energy slaves.



With energy slaves embedded in our food supply I do not see how a die off can be avoided.
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: How to Save Civilization

Unread postby DavidFolks » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 06:51:12

Two cents;

Agriculture has been around for thousands of years. Food surplus has been around even longer. No society that could hunt, gather, or produce food in advance of need would fail to do so. Getting and storing a surplus is basic to long term survival.

If you want to find a technology to blame for overpopulation, blame sanitary engineering.

The single greatest factor to affect infant mortality is that of proper sanitation and sewage control.

Now, having greater infant survival, coupled with less die-off from easily preventable disease, coupled with no change in procreative habits, is what leads to overpopulation.

Having lots of children was a survival trait a lot longer than having lots of children was a destructive trait. Unfortunately, changes in evolved behavior take a long time, and our growth in survival technology is very rapid.

To get back to topic, we save civilization through education. We have to learn to procreate within capacity of the planet to support us. We need to learn how to use resources with less waste.
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