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New form of matter created

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New form of matter created

Unread postby Grifter » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 07:44:14

A new form of matter has been created called Di-positronium.

I posted this in Energy Technology as it may move us closer to actually using fusion power, however TPOPTB may wish to move it.

link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he discovery, reported in the journal Nature, is a key step in the creation of ultra-powerful lasers known as gamma-ray annihilation lasers…………….As a result, there is a huge interest in the technology from the military as well as energy researchers who believe the lasers could be used to kick-start nuclear fusion in a reactor.


I just think it is amazing what we can do, for all the problems we cause to ourselves and others, it is simply awe inspiring that we can do this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')e [Dr Cassidy]highlighted an experiment at the National Ignition Facility (NIF) in the US where scientists are using 196 lasers to heat a fuel target to try to kick-start nuclear fusion.
"Imagine doing that but you no longer need hundreds of lasers," [Dr Cassidy] said.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 08:11:18

Sure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Grifter » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 08:27:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Forgive me for I'm not a science type, just read science articles and often use po.com to understand any any kind of debateable issue.

So are you saying that as it take so long to produce enough positrons then it is unfeasable to create a lazer in the first place? If so I think we will still do it by investing tax money into the research and using the abundant energy we currently have to achieve at least something we can experiment with.

It is still pretty cool that we created a new form of matter.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Omnitir » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 09:26:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?

And technology is stagnant? You're certain that this brand new capability has hit peak performance?


You know, back in the nineteenth century, there were people sceptical that oil could ever be useful since they could only get a few barrels a day, even with the most advanced technology available... It's amazing that the mindset is still so prevalent.


And yes, I agree. It's damn well impressive that a new form of matter can be made!
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 10:07:55

Interesting they actually produced a new form of matter. There's alot of theorizing, but often little proof of different forms of matter.

Anti-matter, matter, new forms of matter...sigh. Tanada seems to believe in the utter futility of research and development, in this area, preferring the various theories regarding doesn't-matter.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Windmills » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 12:23:24

The mindset that amazes me is the rather paradoxical juxtaposition of "faith in science." People that hold a blindered belief in it's ability to deliver limitless prizes for all time turn science into Science, a religion.

We are insignificantly closer to commerical fusion power after 60 years of research and development. It's become an industry that, in practice, is a welfare program for fusion researchers.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Grifter » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 13:07:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', 'T')he mindset that amazes me is the rather paradoxical juxtaposition of "faith in science." People that hold a blindered belief in it's ability to deliver limitless prizes for all time turn science into Science, a religion.


yeah that is strange, I like that interview with simmons when he talks about that scientist who specialises in nano technology (was it Dr Smalley?). He was interested to learn about energy and didn't seem to have linked the need for lots of energy to the advances in science.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Windmills', '
')We are insignificantly closer to commerical fusion power after 60 years of research and development. It's become an industry that, in practice, is a welfare program for fusion researchers.


Whilst I'm sure thats true, it was also said about nuclear researchers. I believe TPTB have a lot more motivation now than over the past 60 years to find a way to continue business as usual.

Powerdown and the transition to a new type of economy seems to be simply off the cards, not negotioable. So I still think we'll do it, if its possible and if the declines aren't immediate and/or drastic.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 17:22:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grifter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Forgive me for I'm not a science type, just read science articles and often use po.com to understand any any kind of debateable issue.

So are you saying that as it take so long to produce enough positrons then it is unfeasable to create a lazer in the first place? If so I think we will still do it by investing tax money into the research and using the abundant energy we currently have to achieve at least something we can experiment with.

It is still pretty cool that we created a new form of matter.


I don't intend to rain on your particular parade here ladies and gentlemen, however the energy needed to produce a matter-antimatter pair is on the order of 100 times the energy you get back when they annihalate each other. At the very most if you can get the energy input cost down to parity you would get back as much as you put in, but you will never get more energy out of manufactured anti-matter than you put in.

As for this being a 'new form of matter' that is a flat out lie, it might and I emphasize MIGHT be a "newly created in the lab" form but we have known for decades that when high energy gamma rays (aka Cosmic Rays) interact with magnetic lines of force and neutrino's they decay spontaneously into matter-antimatter pairs. Nearly always these pairs are electron-positron pairs that form quasey stable orbits around one another as they spiral down the magnetic line of force into the atmosphere. As soon as they encounter any atom of the atmosphere the positron joins with an electron of the atom encountered causing self annialation and pair production of two gamma rays of equel energy departing the reaction in opposite directions at light speed.

This effect was first detected at Jupiter in the 1960's by space researchers and later detected by satalites in Earth orbit. Until it was discovered nobody could figure out why Jupiter was a source of 'cosmic ray' radiation.

So great now we have a method of laboratory production of positron-electron pairs. Gee thats nice, bravo for the physicists who did it and perhaps they can someday get the costs of producing the positrons down to parity. Personally I am not holding my breath, but if they prove me dead wrong I am man enough to admit it and eat me some humble pie.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 17:32:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')nteresting they actually produced a new form of matter. There's alot of theorizing, but often little proof of different forms of matter.

Anti-matter, matter, new forms of matter...sigh. Tanada seems to believe in the utter futility of research and development, in this area, preferring the various theories regarding doesn't-matter.


CERN Antimatter FAQ

Don't take my word for it, read what the researchers at CERN have stated publicly for years.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby americandream » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 17:58:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grifter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Forgive me for I'm not a science type, just read science articles and often use po.com to understand any any kind of debateable issue.

So are you saying that as it take so long to produce enough positrons then it is unfeasable to create a lazer in the first place? If so I think we will still do it by investing tax money into the research and using the abundant energy we currently have to achieve at least something we can experiment with.

It is still pretty cool that we created a new form of matter.


You miss the point behind depletion. Our problem isn't that we are innovative, its that we're using our innovation to prop up a system premised on greed. A good analogy would be using innovation to feed a glutton from limited supplies in a food larder. At some stage, there's only so much you can squeeze out of this planet and no, I do not believe that we are anywhere near the pont where we can take to the stars to continue sustaining the capitalist system.

The system has to go if we are to have a chance of evolving to a species with incredible ability...we need to replace the cult of individualism with the creed of community. Nature abhors individualism...it's something of an abberation...yes it does happen but so do physiological diseases.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby jedinvest » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 18:12:03

When I saw this post, the first thing that came to mind was that the Fed by printing so much money was actually, in effect, printing 'anti-dollars'. These would combine with ordinary, pre-issued dollars and they would essentially have the effect of annihilating each other or, at least, become worthless, which is basically the same thing.

(':lol:')
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby lys3rg0 » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 20:28:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'A')s for this being a 'new form of matter' that is a flat out lie

Actually, I believe all the articles that people quote in opening posts on forums are written by scientifically illiterate people, that's why the terminology is all fucked up. It's obviously not a new form of matter, since we knew about anti-matter for a while. If you follow the trail to the original news story, i think you will find out there is something novel about the experiment in question. They believe that just before annihilation, the molecules were in a state of or close to Bose-Einstein Condensate, which is afaik quite a new thing to experiment with in a lab at temperatures that are not near absolute zero.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby jlw61 » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 22:05:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..I do not believe that we are anywhere near the pont where we can take to the stars to continue sustaining the capitalist system.

The system has to go if we are to have a chance of evolving to a species with incredible ability...we need to replace the cult of individualism with the creed of community...


For the most part, you are speaking correctly and making a good point, however I must take issue where you equate greed with captialism. Greed is a human emotion and can be found in any system including Marxism, Socialism, Comunism, Libertarianism, etc... Captialism is simply private enterprise which is a market condition.

Sorry for the divergent post, but attacking capitalism because greed exists is like attacking religion because TVs exist.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 13 Sep 2007, 22:06:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')nteresting they actually produced a new form of matter. There's alot of theorizing, but often little proof of different forms of matter.

Anti-matter, matter, new forms of matter...sigh. Tanada seems to believe in the utter futility of research and development, in this area, preferring the various theories regarding doesn't-matter.


CERN Antimatter FAQ

Don't take my word for it, read what the researchers at CERN have stated publicly for years.


Just razzing you, Tanada. Couldn't resist the concept of "doesn't-matter" :lol:
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Grifter » Fri 14 Sep 2007, 05:10:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')You miss the point behind depletion. Our problem isn't that we are innovative, its that we're using our innovation to prop up a system premised on greed. A good analogy would be using innovation to feed a glutton from limited supplies in a food larder. At some stage, there's only so much you can squeeze out of this planet and no, I do not believe that we are anywhere near the pont where we can take to the stars to continue sustaining the capitalist system.

The system has to go if we are to have a chance of evolving to a species with incredible ability...we need to replace the cult of individualism with the creed of community. Nature abhors individualism...it's something of an abberation...yes it does happen but so do physiological diseases.


I agree with you, the system has to go, I don't think we will willingly let it go, it will not be our choice. It's still interesting.

Di-positronium, as the article says, has been thought to exist since 1946, but we haven't seen it. Now we have created it and therefore know for certain that it exists. That was how I read it anyway. So if the terminology is wrong to you lys3rg0, it is merely your interpretation of English rather than the writers interpretation of science. I believe the same can be said for the higs boson (sp?) I think, which was observed for the first time a couple of years ago. Previously thought to exist, but now there is actual evidence.

I can't wait for us super innovative species to create the first gamma-ray annihilation laser. 8)

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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby jbeckton » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 12:50:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Your ancient relatives probabaly told the first caveman to carve a wheel that it was a waste of time because it wasn't very useful and it took days to make.

Good call....
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 13:59:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Your ancient relatives probabaly told the first caveman to carve a wheel that it was a waste of time because it wasn't very useful and it took days to make.

Good call....


That has to be one of the silliest analogies I have ever seen.

Not to mention that Travoix were used for a long time before the wheel was invented, and the wheel was invented repeatedly in different cultures long after they built free standing shelters instead of relying only on natural formations.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby jbeckton » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 14:15:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'S')ure why not, it only takes a couple of months to produce enough positrons to create a 1 nanosecond reaction. No problem, a billion months per second of power isn't really an issue is it?


Your ancient relatives probabaly told the first caveman to carve a wheel that it was a waste of time because it wasn't very useful and it took days to make.

Good call....


That has to be one of the silliest analogies I have ever seen.

Not to mention that Travoix were used for a long time before the wheel was invented, and the wheel was invented repeatedly in different cultures long after they built free standing shelters instead of relying only on natural formations.


That is one of the biggest dodges I have ever seen.

The point is a valid one.............and it remains.
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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Badmotorfinger » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 14:44:54

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Re: New form of matter created

Unread postby Badmotorfinger » Mon 17 Sep 2007, 14:45:09

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