[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RdSnt', 'S')orry for the double post.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'W')hat happens to the sick and infirm?

[perdition79]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', ' ')The vast majority of jobs people perform today does not produce anything of value whatsoever.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', '.')..
The vast majority of jobs people perform today does not produce anything of value whatsoever. Wal-Mart stockers don't produce anything, Realtors don't produce anything, Wall Street traders don't produce anything, and used car salesmen don't produce anything. ...

[Johnvancouver]

Great topic. Here are my views on a few things discussed here.

[1] The job loss in the banking, service industries can be compensated elsewhere. As I suggested in an earlier thread that in the post PO economy, manual labor would have to be valued a lot more. Modern farming will become a thing of the past and more people will have to be employed on the farm. We can also each work half time so that twice as many people can be employed. Population decline will also help out the situation. We may find ourselves actually busier doing things a lot more productive.

[2] I think most of us agree we will have to eventually adapt to a low energy consumption life style. As to whether this will come after a sudden collapse of our current consumption based economy or a slower transition, my view is we will go through the sudden collapse. This is based on my total confidence in our government and central bank’s determination and ability to inflate literally until the day the economy dies. When consumption IS the economy, it will be kept up with more and more (but worth less and less) paper money. AG did it. Now BB is doing it again (have you watched what gold is doing lately?). But this economy will collapse nevertheless when we hit a physical constraint, be it the oil depletion or severe consequences of global warming. Until then, there is not a problem that the Power That Be cannot solve by printing more money! They are probably not entirely responsible for this; in a democracy where most people are uninformed and feel entitled to live in a MacMansion and drive around in a big SUV, the only kind of governments we deserve are the ones that will spare no efforts in keeping the constituents happily consuming.

[3] On a happier note, the post PO low energy life style may be imposed on us by Mother Nature, but I would disagree with some who believe it must come with unbearable misery and total chaos. Although I have not experienced the great depression, I had lived through deep poverty (even worse than that of the great depression era?) when I was growing up in China in the 60’s. Everything was rationed, including at one point salt! Materially, we were poor but life was also easier, and the environment was still mostly good. No TV, no cars, not even enough food at times, but Mother Nature offered plenty of simple pleasures and there was no pressure to keep up with the Jones. I was quite content. Ironically, with the PO looming ahead, I may yet again live with the kind of material poverty of my childhood. But I know we can all do it, and am certain that we can all find happiness in simple things which we have not noticed when we were too busy consuming. Who knows, although the initial adjustment may be painful and scary, maybe most people will come to like it better than the hectic and wasteful life style that we have now!

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Johnvancouver', '
')[1] The job loss in the banking, service industries can be compensated elsewhere. As I suggested in an earlier thread that in the post PO economy, manual labor would have to be valued a lot more. Modern farming will become a thing of the past and more people will have to be employed on the farm. We can also each work half time so that twice as many people can be employed. Population decline will also help out the situation. We may find ourselves actually busier doing things a lot more productive.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '"')Caring," in the health care sense, could become a relative term. It could just mean providing supportive care and love until the inevitable. This is already the case for billions of people around the world.

[Revi]

In my town there are three families of young farmers who are running two dairy farms and an orchard. We have a newly expanded farmer's market every Saturday.

I don't know about the bigger picture, but farming is thriving here in Central Maine. The agriculture industry is coming back. We are small scale maple syrup producers, and the market is there for anything we produce. We cut our own wood to heat our houses also. It seems like there's plenty of work for those who are willing to do it. It doesn't pay much, but the food's good.

[Byron100]

Thanks to all of you who have posted these well thought-out replies

Lots to ponder, for sure, which is what we're here for anyhow. I just shudder at the thought of the vast majority of people who just go about their lives and jobs, not even considering that this current way of life is about to change in a very drastic way, and probably sooner rather than later. Those are the folks I worry about the most...as they just won't know what hit them

Perhaps now is a good time to open up a bike shop and become a bike repairman. I have a feeling that's one occupation that isn't going away anytime soon...lol.

[RdSnt]

On this note, I would suggest that the old and infirm will be seen as very valuable by those that are smart enough. Given the scenario we are talking about, the old carry the knowledge, skills and experience that we will need. Many of the old will provide a level of calm that the young won't be able to generate on their own.
As I said, those that are smart enough will shield the old as best they can.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'W')hat happens to the sick and infirm?

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n this note, I would suggest that the old and infirm will be seen as very valuable by those that are smart enough. Given the scenario we are talking about, the old carry the knowledge, skills and experience that we will need. Many of the old will provide a level of calm that the young won't be able to generate on their own. As I said, those that are smart enough will shield the old as best they can.

[Heineken]

Mr. Bill, your comments about old people seem naive.

Old people (assuming they still have their marbles) bring a perspective that is simply absent in the young, no matter how knowledgeable the young may be.

A former used-car salesman may know nothing about farming, but he knows a lot about people, situations, and decisions. He may even have a little mechanical know-how. People pick up all sorts of information during life, and something in that treasure trove may prove useful.

Old people are old people because they've passed the many tests of life, and survived. They have judgment (and, yes, wisdom) that any group of young survivalists could benefit from. I've seen that wisdom working in even the most uneducated, illiterate old country bumpkins.

[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')They drive up the cost of healthcare for the healthy. Unless, of course, they have actually done something with their lives worth passing on.
I am afraid you will find most elderly folks along with most teenagers totally useless. That age brings wisdom is simply not true. Hard work and experience bring wisdom.

[bshirt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '[')i]It is not enough to be industrious; so are the ants. What are you industrious about? ~Thoreau

Much of our busi-ness is much ado about nothing. It keeps us occupied so we don't have to think about the meaninglessness of industrial culture.

When european settlers moved out west. They thought the Indians were lazy. The Indians though had lots of free time. They were able to meet their survival needs with plenty of free time left over.

This is the same free time that industrial civilization has been promising for decades with its labor saving devices. The free time never materialized though. It never will. It was all a big lie. The treadmill only increases its rate of spin.

[Byron100]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'M')r. Bill, your comments about old people seem naive.

Old people (assuming they still have their marbles) bring a perspective that is simply absent in the young, no matter how knowledgeable the young may be.

A former used-car salesman may know nothing about farming, but he knows a lot about people, situations, and decisions. He may even have a little mechanical know-how. People pick up all sorts of information during life, and something in that treasure trove may prove useful.

Old people are old people because they've passed the many tests of life, and survived. They have judgment (and, yes, wisdom) that any group of young survivalists could benefit from. I've seen that wisdom working in even the most uneducated, illiterate old country bumpkins.

[Ludi]

I can't say that I've ever met a "useless" person in my life. Some obviously more clever and handy than others, but none who were completely incapable of helping with something. Even my braindamaged aunt can help with simple tasks. All my old friends (70s and 80s) seem capable of helping with tasks or ideas.

[Twilight]

My thoughts are there will be work, but a lot of it will be unpaid work for yourself.

Imagine a protracted loss of utilities. You will want water, heat and light, in that order. You will have to find a way of obtaining them. You may be lucky enough to have enough open ground outside your house to collect rainwater. More likely, especially in the early years of the emergency, this will mean the occasional month of walking a few extra miles every day to find a water tank, as people did in Oman and England after their storms (though only for a week or two). Welcome to what billions of people already have to do. Heat and light, again, you will need to make your own arrangements. It will probably be done in partnership with family, friends, neighbours, perhaps in more civil fashion than you might assume. Similarly with foodstuffs, open/black markets don't have time-saving standardised products, fixed prices and bar code readers. The task of maintaining the essentials of survival will become more time-intensive and labour-intensive.

If civil unrest, political instability and war come your way, as it will to many, that will be a promotion of sorts - additional responsibility, heavier workload, no raise. It's all the same, the work just won't be in an office cubicle any more, it won't be quantified and processed for anyone's national statistics any more.

I think we will all come to view the consequences of widespread mass unemployment as work, of a different sort, an older sort to which we are not accustomed.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '.')..
I am afraid you will find most elderly folks along with most teenagers totally useless. That age brings wisdom is simply not true. Hard work and experience bring wisdom. As I said, probably not a popular opinion, but I stand by it.
...

[RdSnt]

Boy, some of you are sure harsh on old folks. Good thing you aren't that old yourself yet, and certainly it's a good think you didn't live in the late 30's Germany. The old and infirm wouldn't stand a chance against you.

Let's take that used car salesman. Perhaps he doesn't have much in the way of medieval hand skills, nor can he fix a car. But it's a sure thing he know math and how to assess the worth of a "thing". He'd be good as a barterer; plus he will know people, have connections. He'll know who can fix what and where to get things.

Now let me include my father-in-law. In his mid 70's now, a conservative man, not much for change. He was a purchaser for a manufacturing plant. There won't be much for him to purchase, but what he does know well is how to organize and schedule. He's not a leader by any means, but having his insights on how to expedite material would be useful.
Plus, he is a great games player; cards, board games, etc. A useful trait for educating and entertaining children.

I'm a middle-aged man, a bit outside the usual mold, with a very broad base of experience and skills; both modern and old. There certainly isn't going to be some magical moment/year when I suddenly become useless.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he knowledge that old people have today is unfortunately not going to help us much:
1) how to fix a mainframe computer
2) how to program in Fortran
3) how to design nuclear power plants according to 2nd generation specifications

Finally lets not forget that old people today grew up in the "Greed is Good" generation. They never had to deal with adversity such as the great depression. Instead they spent most of their lives being seduced by the stock market or whatever investment scheme with the false promise of easy money and perpetual growth. Old people today are not going to teach you the value of hard work and thrift. They're just going to say something stupid like:

"Put your money into the stock market and real estate. In the long term it will ALWAYS go up. Buy and hold!"

The truth may hurt but the fact remains they are absolutely worthless. BTW there are people who have their heads screwed on straight...maybe 10% of the population.

my 2 cents