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When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil?!

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Narz » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:14:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'N')arz,

You attribute rational thought to our button pushers...I do not think they are rational at all based on the last 7 years of war mongering, genocide, assasinations, media lies and double speak, torture is ok, etc.

Ah, but they aren't sending their own kids to war. I don't think they are particularly irrational, just immoral.

There's a big jump from killing Iraqi's and a few thousand Americans to dooming the whole human race.

I feel something in the air, alright. I don't know quite what to make of it though.
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Russophile » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:20:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')The plan is to smack the human race into a brick wall at 500 mph...why is that not so very obvious if one actually looked around and recognize the train has not slowed one bit...and in fact the train has picked up much more speed.


Without wishing to sound like a conspiracy nut, this thought has occurred to me, also.

The post petroleum planet will not sustain the world's current population, it seems most agree on this. Somehow, the population will need to be culled, unless of course it very gradually adjusts.

In times of scaricity, man will fight over what's available if his survival is dependent upon it. So there will be global conflict I'm sure, and with an abundance of nuclear weapons, there is sure to be nuclear strikes and potentially retaliatory strikes.

I'm sure the truly rich and powerful are all too aware of this, it seems very bizarre that this would have occurred to us on here, but not to the world's elites.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Roccland » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:22:42

My mistake clueless...

I missed the don't feed the troll sign.

you will not be bothered again...
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby clueless » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:27:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'T')he plan is to smack the human race into a brick wall at 500 mph...why is that not so very obvious if one actually looked around and recognize the train has not slowed one bit...and in fact the train has picked up much more speed.

Can't you feel it Narz?

Really bro...it's in the air...


What exactly is it that you feel ? Indigestion for lunch ? The machine is running at 500mph because greedy people are running it..I'll be willing to bet you are one of those people who lives in the shadow of conspiracies, always lurking in the unknowns, most likely because you cannot handle reality.
Last edited by clueless on Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:28:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby clueless » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:27:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'M')y mistake clueless...

I missed the don't feed the troll sign.

you will not be bothered again...


Bring it on "bro"...
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:38:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Russophile', ' ')\Surely governments are aware of the issue?


Of course. That's why we are in Iraq and will never leave.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby clueless » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 21:39:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'M')y mistake clueless...

I missed the don't feed the troll sign.

you will not be bothered again...


And by the way "bro" I have over 800 posts on this board and even though you have pathetically attempted to stereotype me into a "Troll" , if you look at my posts you will see I engage in rational discsussions about the industry in which I work (which is energy)...Whereas you login under your anonymous screename and act like a bigshot showing everybody how brave you are that you can act like the Big Man on Campus in this holocaust fantasy you engage in...You will be one of the first to cower when the lights start flickering.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Concerned » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 23:49:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'M')y mistake clueless...

I missed the don't feed the troll sign.

you will not be bothered again...


And by the way "bro" I have over 800 posts on this board and even though you have pathetically attempted to stereotype me into a "Troll" , if you look at my posts you will see I engage in rational discsussions about the industry in which I work (which is energy)...Whereas you login under your anonymous screename and act like a bigshot showing everybody how brave you are that you can act like the Big Man on Campus in this holocaust fantasy you engage in...You will be one of the first to cower when the lights start flickering.


Sup clue man, chill bro. Someone really pushed your button(s).

Build a bridge and get over it homie.

Oh and you da rational man clue bro..

peace out
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Concerned » Mon 27 Aug 2007, 23:54:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '[')i]Rev 19:11-18 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Dang ! Homie... *respect*

I like to do some preaching too bro

Chechen Leader: Get out of here. Ve have put out a jihad on the infidels because they destroyed our lives. Vhat do you know about pain and sadness?
Gary: [recalls the incident that killed his brother] I was just a boy when the infidels came into my village in their Black Hawk helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the fire of black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats... screaming for help. As quickly as they'd come the infidels were gone. It was on that day... I put a jihad on them. [one of his captors grins wide] And if you don't believe it, then you'd better kill me now, because I'll put a jihad on you too.
Chechen Leader: [notes that Gary's stare is fixed and didn't flinch during the story] I like you. You have balls. I like balls. All right, listen carefully: the WMDs are located in a secret bunker twenty yards east of this building. [another captor looks outside and notices the Team America members] You can help us by adding them to these-


dirka, dirka, dirka, jihad, jihad, jihad
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:02:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '
')Europeans consume 1/3 the oil we consume and live pretty well - rememembr oil consumption does not mean quality of life.And besides the bigger concern in the near term is electricity, We are really over a barrel on Gas and Coal production.


The bigger concern is electricity on the near term?

Our biggest resource is coal, and we have not really even begun to tap the energy nuclear power could provide. I'd say that electricity is easily the least of our energy concerns.

Also, the American infastructure does not permit one to live the same way on the same amount of energy as your average european.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:20:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Russophile', ' ')\Surely governments are aware of the issue?


Of course. That's why we are in Iraq and will never leave.


If that were really the plan (not saying that has nothing to do with it), why not go to Saudi Arabia instead? They have much more oil, a better exporting infastructure, and it's home to most of the "terrorists".
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:25:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')In under ten years you will be lucky to be dead.


You will be the one we read about in the news that drank the magic koolaid while everyone else kinda changed their minds.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Alcassin » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:27:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f that were really the plan (not saying that has nothing to do with it), why not go to Saudi Arabia instead? They have much more oil, a better exporting infastructure, and it's home to most of the "terrorists".


You wouldn't attack one of your closest friends and allies in the region, would you?

Especially when they pump they money on your market, they buy your guns, and rely on your forces, several thousands marines are in Saudi Arabia in American military bases there.
Peak oil is only an indication and a premise of limits to growth on a finite planet.
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby RacerJace » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:29:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'N')arz,

You attribute rational thought to our button pushers...I do not think they are rational at all based on the last 7 years of war mongering, genocide, assasinations, media lies and double speak, torture is ok, etc.

Ah, but they aren't sending their own kids to war. I don't think they are particularly irrational, just immoral.

There's a big jump from killing Iraqi's and a few thousand Americans to dooming the whole human race.

I feel something in the air, alright. I don't know quite what to make of it though.


Read 'Last Light' by Alex Scarrow.... that will help clarify that creeping feel you have. It's a fictional piece but it does pull together a possible scenario (albiet a little too rapid for my expectations) for a "culling" of the human population by the invisible hand of the elite.

.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Russophile » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:31:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alcassin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f that were really the plan (not saying that has nothing to do with it), why not go to Saudi Arabia instead? They have much more oil, a better exporting infastructure, and it's home to most of the "terrorists".


You wouldn't attack one of your closest friends and allies in the region, would you?

Especially when they pump they money on your market, they buy your guns, and rely on your forces, several thousands marines are in Saudi Arabia in American military bases there.


You beat me to it! I hate Michael Moore with a passion, but he got that bit right.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Russophile » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 08:54:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RacerJace', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'N')arz,

You attribute rational thought to our button pushers...I do not think they are rational at all based on the last 7 years of war mongering, genocide, assasinations, media lies and double speak, torture is ok, etc.

Ah, but they aren't sending their own kids to war. I don't think they are particularly irrational, just immoral.

There's a big jump from killing Iraqi's and a few thousand Americans to dooming the whole human race.

I feel something in the air, alright. I don't know quite what to make of it though.


Read 'Last Light' by Alex Scarrow.... that will help clarify that creeping feel you have. It's a fictional piece but it does pull together a possible scenario (abiet a little too rapid for my expectations) for a "culling" of the human population by the invisible hand of the elite.

.


I don't know why people thing that 'the elite', 'ruling class' or whatever one wants to call them are benign philanthropists, I think history indicates they're anything but.

As I have mentioned I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't believe Zionists, Masons or the Illuminati control the world. However, power is definitely concentrated amongst a relatively small number of very rich people, and it tends to remain in the hands of their ancestors, too - eg. George W. Bush can trace his ancestry back to Edward Longshanks and is a distant cousin of Colin Powell and Princess Diana...oh yeah, and his dad happens to be a former President.

The only reason we're not governed by monarchies in Europe today, is due to revolutions inspired by increased literacy. If the world is too pupualted for their comfort, the wealthy and the powerful will do what's necessary. These monarchs never had problems sacrificing armies in the persuit of land and wealth in the past, and it wouldn't trouble their modern contemporaries much, either.

That's just how I see it.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 09:05:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alcassin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f that were really the plan (not saying that has nothing to do with it), why not go to Saudi Arabia instead? They have much more oil, a better exporting infastructure, and it's home to most of the "terrorists".


You wouldn't attack one of your closest friends and allies in the region, would you?

Especially when they pump they money on your market, they buy your guns, and rely on your forces, several thousands marines are in Saudi Arabia in American military bases there.


Why rely on them giving us what we want if we are willing to take it? The Saudi royal family is also falling out of favor and it's not unthinkable for them to be overthrown, where does that leave us?

Calling the Saudi's "friends" is a bit of a streach, we need them and they need us. Stalin and Roosevelt were not friends- they needed each other.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Roccland » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 09:39:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', ' ')Our biggest resource is coal, and we have not really even begun to tap the energy nuclear power could provide. I'd say that electricity is easily the least of our energy concerns.


1) ITO coal - appears we may be peaking in the near future and in the US, proposed coal fired power plants are being cancelled due to global warming issues.

2) ITO uranium - it is estimated globally we have 40 years of the stuff left at current use rates...

3) Had lunch a month ago with a high level electrical engineer for a large southwest utility...he told me unless we get more installed generation on the WECC grid...Phoenix will start to have black outs in under two years.

I actually think keeping the lights on is one of our more serious concerns.
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 09:55:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')1) ITO coal - appears we may be peaking in the near future and in the US, proposed coal fired power plants are being cancelled due to global warming issues.

Don't know what ITO means but...plants are not being canceled becuase of GW. They are being built with scrubbers and SCR's to meet emmision regs.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')2) ITO uranium - it is estimated globally we have 40 years of the stuff left at current use rates...
Anyone who uses uranium supply estimates to show a limit to nuclear power just hasn't even begun to understand nuclear power.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', '
')3) Had lunch a month ago with a high level electrical engineer for a large southwest utility...he told me unless we get more installed generation on the WECC grid...Phoenix will start to have black outs in under two years.

If this is what he told you is the cause for concern then your "high level" engineer doesn't know what he is talking about. This is not true throughout the grid, I am a power generation engineer and I can tell you that generation is not the problem, grid capacity is. Besides, there are many things we can do to curve peak load "when the grid is overstressed", it's a probelm, but one that is solveable.

And even so, this presents a problem to a few sections of the grid, unlike PO which effects everyone.

Again, how id this problem more severe than PO?
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Re: When, if at all, will society feel the brunt of peak oil

Unread postby Revi » Tue 28 Aug 2007, 10:24:24

It might be a problem to us "middle class" people soon. The grid might be held up by demand destruction. That means that those of us who can't afford 500 dollar electricity bills sit in the dark. It could happen sooner than you think.

I think that "society" is already feeling the brunt of peak oil, if you count people in Maine as "society". The electric cooperative I belong to had over 100 accounts in arrears of $500 or more this spring. That means a lot of people couldn't afford electricity this year already. It's going to get worse and worse for the average person.

Driving around in pickups that get only 10 miles per gallon and having to commute to jobs many miles away is getting expensive.
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