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Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby Graeme » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 03:46:39

Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring as prices militate against it

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')t the moment there is little left that is economically viable to produce. The world is actually running out of offshore projects. That's why rig rates for three years from now are lower than today.

Another $10 or so on the oil price and this will release a few extra billion barrels.

Shift forward to an oil price of $100 and a lot more fields will be developed. But go much above that $100 and demand destruction begins to set in. Get to $150 and that's economic mayhem time.


Kerevan quotes Professor Chris Harvie, the SNP MSP, rejecting Harvie's belief that we will see peak oil within 30 years. Harvie is almost certainly wrong - but only because we won't need to wait 30 years.

Offshore production has peaked already and so has the production of both onshore and offshore light crude.

A large percentage of liquid fuels are now refined from heavy crude with an increasing amount coming from gas to liquid technology and from associated gas.

In fact, there is a real danger of a convergence between demand and supply as early as next year - which is earlier than even the IEA suggest in their latest report.


But even then there is only an estimated 400 billion barrels offshore technical reserves to play with globally.

Given recovery rates and what's truly economical, you can safely cut that estimate in half. There is perhaps 200 billion barrels oil equivalent left to recover.


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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby Tanada » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 08:00:23

I can't say these conclusions surprise me. On the contrary, I kind of expected it, deep down inside. One of three scenario's come to mind with the end of cheap oil,

A) the economy stumbles along and demand remains high enough for deep drilling,

B) the economy collapses and the price falls with it making deep drilling uneconomic,

C) or my preferred solution a substitute just expensive enough to be cheaper than deep drilling which will erase growth for the sake of growth gets developed and deployed while the economy struggles and population falls.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby shortonoil » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 09:18:20

Tanada said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can't say these conclusions surprise me. On the contrary, I kind of expected it, deep down inside.


The ERoEI of the world’s oil supply has fallen far too low to allow for massively energy expensive development to occur. Regardless of the price of oil, development of fields like Jack #2 and Rocky Mountain shale oil, will never take place. Since our currency depends on energy to exist, and its value is determined by its availability, as energy in energy terms continues to rise, all of these supposed energy intensive projects will be priced out in dollar terms. It takes energy to produce energy, and we have reached the point where these costs have increased until they no longer allow for a positive rate of return on these energy investments. Therefore, they will not proceed. It’s called Peak Oil.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby lawnchair » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 10:29:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')C) or my preferred solution a substitute just expensive enough to be cheaper than deep drilling which will erase growth for the sake of growth gets developed and deployed while the economy struggles and population falls.


Unfortunately C will involve substitutes like biofuels, slightly less expensive than deep drilling in cash but with savage externalized costs like soil depletion, deforestation, underclass starvation, etc.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby Tanada » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 18:25:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lawnchair', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')C) or my preferred solution a substitute just expensive enough to be cheaper than deep drilling which will erase growth for the sake of growth gets developed and deployed while the economy struggles and population falls.


Unfortunately C will involve substitutes like biofuels, slightly less expensive than deep drilling in cash but with savage externalized costs like soil depletion, deforestation, underclass starvation, etc.


Fortunately biofuels are not the only possible substitute, as a matter of fact i expect a bouquette of substitutes each doing part of the job of replacing fossil fuels, unless we get total economic collapse first.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby cube » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 19:11:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '.')..
Fortunately biofuels are not the only possible substitute, as a matter of fact i expect a bouquette of substitutes each doing part of the job of replacing fossil fuels, unless we get total economic collapse first.
The problem with every "solution" to PO is that it advocates making more intensive use of pre-existing resources to make up for short falls in oil production.

examples:

Increase lead production to make -- lead acid battery EV cars

Increase iron ore production to make -- windmills

Increase water resource use to grow -- crops for biofuels

Increase *some resource* to create *insert your favorite energy technology*

Is there enough lead metal, iron ore, water resource, etc.... to replace a decline in crude oil production? We're going to find out. :twisted:
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby sicophiliac » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 00:18:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '[')b]Tanada said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can't say these conclusions surprise me. On the contrary, I kind of expected it, deep down inside.


The ERoEI of the world’s oil supply has fallen far too low to allow for massively energy expensive development to occur. Regardless of the price of oil, development of fields like Jack #2 and Rocky Mountain shale oil, will never take place. Since our currency depends on energy to exist, and its value is determined by its availability, as energy in energy terms continues to rise, all of these supposed energy intensive projects will be priced out in dollar terms. It takes energy to produce energy, and we have reached the point where these costs have increased until they no longer allow for a positive rate of return on these energy investments. Therefore, they will not proceed. It’s called Peak Oil.


Well I disagree, the costs of producing energy will rise of course but as long as the net energy return is substantially positive then the value of that energy yielded will keep it economical. These deep water projects will go through, and I am sure we will a lot more drilling out there as they go for smaller and deeper fields of oil as prices keep rising. Yes there will be a point when its not worth it to extract but I dont think we are there yet, nor do I think these low EROEI energy sources will negate the imminence of peak oil either.

As for cubes comment, solar based on silicon would seem to be the answer to that. The entire earths crust is pretty much made of silicon. Battery technology and resources are an issue but on the energy front I think solar is ultimately the most promising alt energy. No moving parts, good EROEI, its renewable, requires no water, relatively reliable ect ect.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby OilIsMastery » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 01:33:17

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2 ... r-day.aspx

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')urprising absolutely no one, leading offshore contract driller Transocean (NYSE: RIG) reported a barnburner of a quarter. For the first time in the company's history, the overall fleet earned average dayrates north of $200,000. The 57% rise in rates, coupled with higher capacity utilization, drove contract drilling revenues up 64% over the prior year. Field operating income, which the company defines as sales minus operating and maintenance expense, hurdled 165% higher.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby essex » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 06:05:41

Deep drilling is a huge challenge. I have a stake in CNR ( Canargo ) and the well they have drilled at Manavi ( M12 ) is arguably the most difficult well in the world. An acid frac will be done in Oct on what is potentially a huge field. For DD go to investorvillage.com, don't bother with the Yahoo message board. All the same whatever is produced is just a drop in the bucket when we look at world demand which is depleting world oil reserves by an accelerating minimum of 1% every two months. When you factor in the export land model, ie producing country domestic demand competing with and eventually overwhelming diminishing production for export then red lights should be flashing everywhere. So far this hasn't happened but I believe public awareness will be raised enormously in the next 6 months. Two weeks ago I was asked to talk to a local Rotary group about energy issues. 20 mins was allocated for the talk but it lasted 45 mins. They were like stunned mullets after I had finished.
A friend of mine has a son who manages offshore rigs for ExxonMobil in Australia. Privately Exxon executives are saying that the world has only 15 years of oil left, Australia only 5.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby shortonoil » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 10:47:29

sicophiliac said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell I disagree, the costs of producing energy will rise of course but as long as the net energy return is substantially positive then the value of that energy yielded will keep it economical.


The problem is that the “net energy return” is notsubstantially positive”. The ERoEI of the world’s oil fields has fallen from 100:1 in 1930 to approx. 20:1 in 2005. This has been a little over 1 unit per year. The ERoEI of world oil is now about 18:1. (This decline is not a true linear relationship, but rather follows a decay curve. This is displayed in the numerator of the Logistic Curve, which is a form of the decay curve.) ERoEI is, however, calculated at the well head. The ERoEI of finished product, which is what is pertinent to society, is actually much lower than this (see Cleveland and Kaufman), and is somewhere in the area of 6-4:1. This translates into a decline of available net energy from oil to the society (at .5 units per year, its present real rate of decline) to a loss of 8 to 13% per year. As the ERoEI continues to decline, that loss will accelerate.

As the world is presently losing (oil now constitutes 40% of the world’s energy supply) 3.2 to 5.2% of its energy supply annually, projects with high energy investments and ERoEI’s below 18:1 will fail. Deep water oil, tar sands and many bio-fuels are destined to join the scrap piles of the coming economic reality. Those that have deluded themselves, into thinking that we can somehow beat the simple laws of thermodynamics, are destined to join them.
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Re: Ultra-deep drilling for oil is simply a red herring

Postby Tanada » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 12:43:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '[')b]sicophiliac said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell I disagree, the costs of producing energy will rise of course but as long as the net energy return is substantially positive then the value of that energy yielded will keep it economical.


The problem is that the “net energy return” is notsubstantially positive”. The ERoEI of the world’s oil fields has fallen from 100:1 in 1930 to approx. 20:1 in 2005. This has been a little over 1 unit per year. The ERoEI of world oil is now about 18:1. (This decline is not a true linear relationship, but rather follows a decay curve. This is displayed in the numerator of the Logistic Curve, which is a form of the decay curve.) ERoEI is, however, calculated at the well head. The ERoEI of finished product, which is what is pertinent to society, is actually much lower than this (see Cleveland and Kaufman), and is somewhere in the area of 6-4:1. This translates into a decline of available net energy from oil to the society (at .5 units per year, its present real rate of decline) to a loss of 8 to 13% per year. As the ERoEI continues to decline, that loss will accelerate.

As the world is presently losing (oil now constitutes 40% of the world’s energy supply) 3.2 to 5.2% of its energy supply annually, projects with high energy investments and ERoEI’s below 18:1 will fail. Deep water oil, tar sands and many bio-fuels are destined to join the scrap piles of the coming economic reality. Those that have deluded themselves, into thinking that we can somehow beat the simple laws of thermodynamics, are destined to join them.


If the EROEI of expensive crude is 4:1 for gasoline and 1.34:1 for corn ethanol and there is a decline of .5/year in the EROEI on finished petroleum products then will not expensive crude be less useful than corn ethanol in 6 years?

Do you have a list of the EROEI for various grades of crude oil, finished petroleum products, ethanol, biological oils, biodiesel and so on and so forth? Do you have a figure for NH3 via ICE combustion?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alfred Tennyson', 'W')e are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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