Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Life and Death

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
Post a reply

If you were in a lifeboat rated for 8 people with 24 on board, and more tried to board, would you:

Poll ended at Sat 08 Sep 2007, 19:28:39

Let them on board.
9
No votes
Fend them off.
28
No votes
Other (must be explained)
8
No votes
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 14:26:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', ' ')The rage against even thinking about reducing breeding rates is amazing to me.


As I wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('William Stanton', 'P')robably the greatest obstacle to the scenario [population reduction] with the best chance of success (in my opinion) is the Western world’s unintelligent devotion to political correctness, human rights and the sanctity of human life. In the Darwinian world that preceded and will follow the fossil fuel era, these concepts were and will be meaningless.


We have grown accustomed to the freedom to breed on the commons. For anyone to suggest otherwise is anathema to most people. But this unbridled growth can’t continue. We must intervene and become our own predator; a Darwinian application in all of its aspects. To many people, the mere suggestion of population control, much less reduction, is out of the question, especially if it entails addressing both the birth rate and the death rate. But like Hardin points out; we must choose — or acquiesce in the destruction of the commons that mankind calls Earth. Not the Earth itself, as that would be quite presumptuous, but its’ ability to support us.

You want freedom from disease and suffering? You want the freedom to save as many human lives as possible? You want the freedom to preserve your moral ideals and embracement of the sanctity of life? Fine, then you are going to have to give up the freedom to breed without restraint. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby holmes » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 14:33:51

xactly Monte. I just hope more and more people tune out the band aids and start digging deep into their souls. Hopefully enough people have souls based in reality. I hate seeing so much death and we have not even seen anything yet. Give it 20 years Monte. It will be just winding up.... in the USA anyway. Wait till all these illegals double their numbers. Just that population alone! God lord. the infrastructrue in place can not support them even now. God have mercy on our souls it is going to be freakish.
"To crush the Cornucopians, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."
holmes
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Tue 12 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Chesire » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 15:15:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chesire', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chesire', 'G')ive up my spot and encourage other people with the best chance of surviving the water to do the same. I have no fear of death and it would be preferable to bashing in women and children's head with an oar to survive. There is a great deal of survival courage in this thread there is very little moral courage.


I find it interesting that people pick the worse possible scenario with the most violent response.

"bashing in women and children's head with an oar to survive."


Your the one who answered in the affirmative as to whether there were oars on board or not. I find it interesting that you continue to post these sort of scenarios repeatedly myself. Are you planning on running for office on with a Kinder , Gentler Depopulation platform ? Or will you opt for the Thud and Blunder depopulation plan ? Simply testing the waters as to what sort of popular support you would get from the 'silent majority' ?


Good lord. Most lifeboats have oars. Doesn't mean you use them to bash people on the head.

If you were in the loop, you would understand the point being made with these polls.


Well if your looking for answers I have one for you. 42
User avatar
Chesire
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri 13 Jul 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 15:23:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
Those are clearly attempts at backpedaling out of her previous statements to the contrary.

The record speaks for itself.


You call it backpedaling. I call it clarification. You've been reading her input for years, yet you don't understand where she stands?


Well, let's see where she stands. Here are the posts I took issue with:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')hat, and I still think we should let nature do the job. I think nature would do a better job than we can do. Especially this late in the game.

l never said anything about avoiding reducing the population. That[reducing the population] would be trying to dominate and control nature, which is foolish.

I don't believe it is my place or within my power to make decisions about global human population.

Yes, I think assuming that "responsibility" is megalomaniacal and a really, really bad idea. I think it's dominionist.

We can't choose to control the way down on a large scale any more than we "chose" to get here. All this blame and shame is a waste of energy, IMO. I'm protecting my local land base as best I can, and trying to teach others to make that a priority. That's my responsibility.

In any case, nobody has to "try" to reduce the population, nature's going to take care of it, which is as it should be. The overshoot is nature's doing, too, by the way.


Pretty clear; it's nature's job, not our responsibility.

Then comes the backpedal:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') would like to clarify that my position is it is wrong to attempt population control on a large scale, that if it's to be done it must be on a local basis.


Messing with nature on a local basis is ok, but on a global basis, it is trying to dominate and control nature and smacks of megalomania?

So, tell us, Shannymara, what would you do on a local basis to reduce the population that would jive with your above positions?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby gnm » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 15:43:20

She didn't backpedal.. And she didn't even say local control should be done... She said _if_ it was to be done it should be local. She also clarified that already when she said that it should be left to local cultures, tribes, and the like... I think thats what she meant by on a local level.

You accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.
Such suggestions go against many religions and cultural norms and would definitely require an _iron fist_ to reverse...

You really think that elites in any society are going to follow their own rules if such were implemented? :roll:

You can pontificate about it all you want but the only solution we are ever going to get is natures. Nasty though it may be....

-G
gnm
 
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 16:01:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'S')he didn't backpedal.. And she didn't even say local control should be done... She said _if_ it was to be done it should be local. She also clarified that already when she said that it should be left to local cultures, tribes, and the like... I think thats what she meant by on a local level.


So, if she didn't backpedal, then her position is that it's nature's job and not our responsibility.

Even to you, her backpedal didn't fly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


Strawman.

Nowhere, in this thread can you find such a position. A population reduction plan put together by several members suggests possible ways, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

I have only said we need to try and reduce the existing population; that's it's our responsibility to make an attempt.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Chesire » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 16:37:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'S')he didn't backpedal.. And she didn't even say local control should be done... She said _if_ it was to be done it should be local. She also clarified that already when she said that it should be left to local cultures, tribes, and the like... I think thats what she meant by on a local level.


So, if she didn't backpedal, then her position is that it's nature's job and not our responsibility.

Even to you, her backpedal didn't fly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


Strawman.

Nowhere, in this thread can you find such a position. A population reduction plan put together by several members suggests possible ways, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

I have only said we need to try and reduce the existing population; that's it's our responsibility to make an attempt.


If you add up all non survival based daily expenditures in the industrial world. Such as transport, housing , anything more than a subsistence diet ad infinitum , ad nauseam . Bundled it all up then used that to purchase food , clothing , shelter , basic medical care for the worlds non industrial peoples.
A lot of them that die daily under current conditions would not only survive but thrive with these needs met. This isn't going to happen . So really the industrial consumer populace is already diligently doing their best to kill off non industrial populations in a passive manner. Other than lobbying their respective elected officals to have a draft and wage the resource war NOW . There isn't a whole lot more Joe and Jane consumer are able to do to exacerbate the die off . Soon though really soon we will be converting more and more food into fuel. Perhaps you can capitalize on it . Patent the Monte counter it will tell you how many people died of starvation per mile driven on food based fuel. You could even have contests of most people starved to death per day or mile or model and make . The winners would get brand new state of the art Monte counters with real time satellite update links.
User avatar
Chesire
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri 13 Jul 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby gnm » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 17:04:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


Strawman.

Nowhere, in this thread can you find such a position. A population reduction plan put together by several members suggests possible ways, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

I have only said we need to try and reduce the existing population; that's it's our responsibility to make an attempt.


Ah, so very careful aren't you.. .But I'm fairly sure I could find such a position in another thread...

-G
gnm
 
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:11:02

I think someone's upset about energy stocks being down or maybe hitting the bottle a little heavily.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 02:33:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')You accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


So, are all these people full of hubris as well?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')epresentatives of national academies of science from throughout the world met in New Delhi, India, from October 24-27, 1993, in a "Science Summit" on World Population. The conference grew out of two earlier meetings, one of the Royal Society of London and the United States National Academy of Sciences, and the other and international conference organized by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. Statements published by both groups* expressed a sense of urgent concern about the expansion of the world's population and concluded that if current predictions of population growth prove accurate and patterns of human activity of the planet remain unchanged, science and technology may not be able to prevent irreversible degradation of the natural environment and continued poverty for much of the world.

As human numbers further increase, the potential for irreversible changes of far-reaching magnitude also increases. Indicators of severe environmental stress include the growing loss of biodiversity, increasing greenhouse gas emissions, increasing deforestation worldwide, stratospheric ozone depletion, acid rain, loss of topsoil, and shortages of water, food, and fuel-wood in many parts of the world.

Both developed and developing countries face a great dilemma in reorienting their productive activities in the direction of a more harmonious interaction with nature. This challenge is accentuated by the uneven stages of development. If all people of the world consumed fossil fuels and other natural resources at the rate now characteristic of developed countries (and with current technologies), this would greatly intensify our already unsustainable demands on the biosphere.

Action Is Needed Now

Humanity is approaching a crisis point with respect to the interlocking issues of population, environment, and development. Scientists today have the opportunity and responsibility to mount a concerted effort to confront our human predicament. But science and technology can only provide tools and blueprints for action and social change. It is the governments and international decision-makers, including those meeting in Cairo next September at the United Nations International Conference on Population and Development, who hold the key to our future. We urge them to take incisive action now and to adopt an integrated policy on population and sustainable development on a global scale.


Written 13 years ago.

joint statement by fifty-eight of the world's scientific academies
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Jack » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 08:41:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'O')IL has created a fantasy of "morals and values". Oil has created a false "compassion" as well. Soon we will find out a swarm has been created and these "morals, values and compassion" are going to go bye bye. Maybe they will return after WE HAVE PAYED THE PIPER. I do have to laugh about how disconnected humans truly and how they think that we are really going to get off scott free and suffer zero or very minimal consequences for our actions. Ludicrous to say the least. Just pass the buck big boys.


Outstanding post. I could not agree more.
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby kevincarter » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 11:28:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Population Reduction

Thanks to everyone who contributed to it's completion.

1. A one-child per woman policy along with incentives, such as paying women not to have children.

2. Free abortion, birth control, and sterilization on demand.

3. Advocate careful legal Euthanasia and assisted suicide/promote as a valid, moral choice.

4. Advocate the elimination of assisted life support and extraneous means to prolong life.

5. Advocate an end to most organ transplants/promote a better lifestyle to reduce the need for them.

6. Promote family planning and education/teach population ecology in the schools at an early age.

7. Ban fertility clinics and artificial insemination/give infertile couples preference to adopt.

8. Food production must be planned in concert with projected population decline and be shared equitably.

9. Address religious and other cultural traditions that oppose birth control.

10. Narrow the inequity amongst the world’s people/ promote rural energy development in poor countries.

11. Establish a long-term goal of population reduction through birth control and euthanasia to 2 billion people on earth.

12. Target areas of high birth rate/energy consumption.

Like some of the 911 conspiracy said once, this theory has holes so big that a 747 could fly though them. As I see it it *could* be implemented in the first world only, which does not has an outstanding population growth problem right now if compared to the third world. Try to implement any of this policies in, let's say, India or anywhere in Africa and you've got a 100% chance of failing. Pay women? you'll be broke in a day, that is if the bureaucrats don't rob all the money first. Free abortion? From hindus to muslims they'll want your head, don't talk to them about lifeboats or statistics they'll be flat no. And "Careful legal" does not exist in the third world either.

So, how do we do it? We don't really have to do anything, but still, if we were to do anything at all I would simply stop selling them food, which is of course unviable because there are people making big money out of it just by flooding their markets with cheap machinery-produced food so it becomes cheaper from them to buy form us than to produce it.

But really, there is no viable solution, this population thing has gone out of hand.
kevincarter
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby gnm » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:00:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')You accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


So, are all these people full of hubris as well?


I really don't care who said it... I'm not impressed. Its a far cry from academic theories to reality.

If they seriously believe such plans can be implemented, then yes.... hubris.

You might just as well say you're going to solve the planets energy problems with orbiting solar panels...

Like Kevincarter said.... the odds of that working say in... Indonesia.... zip zero zilch....

-G
gnm
 
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:13:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')You accuse people of hubris all the time and then you suggest that rigid population controls should be implemented on a global scale... Thats rich... talk about hubris.


So, are all these people full of hubris as well?


I really don't care who said it... I'm not impressed. Its a far cry from academic theories to reality.

If they seriously believe such plans can be implemented, then yes.... hubris.

You might just as well say you're going to solve the planets energy problems with orbiting solar panels...

Like Kevincarter said.... the odds of that working say in... Indonesia.... zip zero zilch....

-G


Well, that's what all these poll questions was about. What do people think.

While it is a small sampling....

87% believe we have overshoot our carrying capacity and that we need to reduce our population.

83% agree it is our responsibility to try and do so.

60% would make hard choices.

That puts you in the minority.

So, do you posit, that just because the challenges are high, we should make no attempt to try and reduce our population?

Rather defeatist, if that's your position.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:17:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')Like Kevincarter said.... the odds of that working say in... Indonesia.... zip zero zilch....
It won't work anywhere. It's a silly, pointless, naive program. I can respect folks who are seriously planning to get themselves to remote, viable places to attempt complete self-sufficiency. IMO their chances are slim, but that's better than this program where the chances are none. It's too late for that.
User avatar
PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11363
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:20:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', ' ')Like some of the 911 conspiracy said once, this theory has holes so big that a 747 could fly though them. As I see it it *could* be implemented in the first world only, which does not has an outstanding population growth problem right now if compared to the third world. Try to implement any of this policies in, let's say, India or anywhere in Africa and you've got a 100% chance of failing.


Who said it was carved in stone? Who said it was a blanket policy to be applied everywhere or that it would work everywhere?

I said as much up front when this was posted.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', 'U')ndoubtedly, the current growth must cease and be reversed. But anyone who believes that he can draw a blueprint for the ecological salvation of the human species does not understand the nature of evolution, or even of history — which is that of a permanent struggle for survival in continuously novel forms. So, any blueprint must really be a rough sketch that evolves and changes over time; it can’t be carved in stone.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut really, there is no viable solution, this population thing has gone out of hand.


So, we shouldn't even try?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:21:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')Like Kevincarter said.... the odds of that working say in... Indonesia.... zip zero zilch....
It won't work anywhere. It's a silly, pointless, naive program. I can respect folks who are seriously planning to get themselves to remote, viable places to attempt complete self-sufficiency. IMO their chances are slim, but that's better than this program where the chances are none. It's too late for that.


So, we shouldn't even try?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby gnm » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:26:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')87% believe we have overshoot our carrying capacity and that we need to reduce our population.

83% agree it is our responsibility to try and do so.

60% would make hard choices.

That puts you in the minority.

So, do you posit, that just because the challenges are high, we should make no attempt to try and reduce our population?

Rather defeatist, if that's your position.


Not defeatist... realist... Only a fool would attempt it. Or a megalomaniac dictator.

Hard choices eh? Yeah, thats one way of putting it. You are completely ignoring the fact that in most of the world and indeed in the places with the most rapid growth you would have no way of implementing these policies short of outright dictatorship which would end in civil war.

Its all pointless rhetoric.

-G
gnm
 
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:27:25

"As a result of PDA's extensive family planning efforts in conjunction with the national program, Thailand's birth rate experienced a dramatic drop from 3.3% to only 1.2% today."

http://www.geom.unimelb.edu.au/pda/script.htm
Ludi
 
Top

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 14 Aug 2007, 12:30:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')So, we shouldn't even try?
"We" aren't ever going to try. I understand where you are coming from with your activist point of view. Kudos for your good intentions. But all the kings horses and all the king's men "tried" to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
User avatar
PenultimateManStanding
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11363
Joined: Sun 28 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Medical Issues Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron