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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Life and Death

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

If you were in a lifeboat rated for 8 people with 24 on board, and more tried to board, would you:

Poll ended at Sat 08 Sep 2007, 19:28:39

Let them on board.
9
No votes
Fend them off.
28
No votes
Other (must be explained)
8
No votes
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Life and Death

Postby Hawkcreek » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 16:34:19

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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 18:12:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy is it that so many miss the point of this poll?


What is the point of you investing so much energy in trying to make the whole world belive exactly as you do? Don't you have a life outside of Peak Oil?


It isn't my beliefs I try to get people to grasp.

What I personally believe is not relevant. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

I'm just the messenger relating the facts supported by those who know far more than I.

From one of my writings:

"Throughout my life, I have been rather appalled at the way mankind has treated this planet. It has a given me very strong convictions about life and how to live it. From the miracle of Crater Lake's blue...to the endless sawgrass prairies of the Everglades; the dreams and memories they contain are in our care today; tomorrow's generations depend on us to keep them whole.

Although I was born in Winslow, Arizona, the locale that probably had the most influence on my life was good ol' Missouri. At the tender age of three, I went to live with my grandparents on a farm in Northwest Missouri, just a stone's throw from the Iowa line. It was there, under the influence of my grandfather, that the ground work was laid for the conservation ethic that has so dominated my life. He was a very frugal man; making do with what he had, and if forced to buy something, it was usually second-hand. This austere life, coupled with his discrete use of insecticides, herbicides, and inorganic fertilizers, made a great impression on me. It was my first lesson in the philosophy...that less is more."


Sure I have a life outside of peakoil. I serve on several boards and committees, admin a sustainability website, run a construction business, paint, do stained glass, photography, hike, play music, travel, explore.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby Jack » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 18:41:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')n a boat at sea with people dehyrdated, how would you allocate limited water, say only a gallon amongst 4 people?

How would you dole it out?


All for me. None for them. Simple. 8)
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 18:52:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')n a boat at sea with people dehyrdated, how would you allocate limited water, say only a gallon amongst 4 people?

How would you dole it out?


All for me. None for them. Simple. 8)


Most people would try to ration it. They watch too many movies.

Never, under any circumstances do you ever ration water.

Let each person drink as much of his quart as he wishes, even if it is all of it.

Water can't do you much good sitting in a canteen.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby katkinkate » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 21:04:11

I read somewhere, a long time ago, that when fresh water supplies were tight on a sea voyage, the sailors would keep themselves wet with sea water. The skin would absorb some of the water and the rest would evaporate, cooling them down and reducing the amount of their own water they would lose as sweat. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make, but every little bit counts. I also read in a survival book once, the best place to store water in a survival situation is in your stomach.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 21:18:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', ' ') I also read in a survival book once, the best place to store water in a survival situation is in your stomach.


Exactly the right answer. :)
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Re: Life and Death

Postby joewp » Sat 11 Aug 2007, 22:08:34

I chose "other" because I probably wouldn't be in a lifeboat for 8 with 23 other people in the first place. I'd be using anything that floats and moving away from the situation in the direction of the nearest land based on my best guess. There's no reason to assume that anything good would come out of that lifeboat. The 23 people have already demonstrated poor judgment in letting so many board in the first place. I wouldn't be very interested in being subject to the future decisions, they've certainly screwed up already. Maybe I'd make a wrong guess in my choice of directions and die sooner, maybe I'd find an island with a native population that had a prophesy of a white god floating to their island to bask in their worship, who knows?

I think I'd have a much better chance of survival than sitting on a boat with 24 people playing whack-a-mole or trying to "rescue" even more people. There's no point in sticking with the mass of people who are going to sink the boat and drown. Trying another solution, even a hopeless one, offers a different outcome than the sure one presented in the overloaded lifeboat.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 00:39:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joewp', 'I') chose "other" because I probably wouldn't be in a lifeboat for 8 with 23 other people in the first place. I'd be using anything that floats and moving away from the situation in the direction of the nearest land based on my best guess. There's no reason to assume that anything good would come out of that lifeboat. The 23 people have already demonstrated poor judgment in letting so many board in the first place. I wouldn't be very interested in being subject to the future decisions, they've certainly screwed up already. Maybe I'd make a wrong guess in my choice of directions and die sooner, maybe I'd find an island with a native population that had a prophesy of a white god floating to their island to bask in their worship, who knows?

I think I'd have a much better chance of survival than sitting on a boat with 24 people playing whack-a-mole or trying to "rescue" even more people. There's no point in sticking with the mass of people who are going to sink the boat and drown. Trying another solution, even a hopeless one, offers a different outcome than the sure one presented in the overloaded lifeboat.


And yet we find ourselves on just such an overloaded boat, called earth, with no place to run.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby joewp » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 01:51:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')And yet we find ourselves on just such an overloaded boat, called earth, with no place to run.


Call me a dreamer, but I think their are isolated areas with fertile soil, adequate rainfall and a supportive social system that will be somewhat untouched by the converging catastrophes we're facing. It won't be easy, but some remnant of humanity has a chance to survive in the long run if they don't "overload the boat", as it were.

It's the one glimmer of hope I have in my otherwise doomer psyche. I only hope the survivors remember the worst mistake in human history and try not to repeat it.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby Narz » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 04:10:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', ' ') I also read in a survival book once, the best place to store water in a survival situation is in your stomach.


Exactly the right answer. :)

Why is that? Wouldn't your body adapt better to the water shortage if it became dehydrated slowly?
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 12:28:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joewp', ' ')Call me a dreamer, but I think their are isolated areas with fertile soil, adequate rainfall and a supportive social system that will be somewhat untouched by the converging catastrophes we're facing.


Perhaps, but I know of no region of the earth not subject to global pollution, global climate change, loss of biodiversity/habitat, and pandemic disease.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 12:30:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') agree with joewp, because it is not a little plastic boat. It is a complex system with many niches.


Where would you hide in a sinking boat to avoid both making a choice and drowning?
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 12:37:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', ' ') I also read in a survival book once, the best place to store water in a survival situation is in your stomach.


Exactly the right answer. :)

Why is that? Wouldn't your body adapt better to the water shortage if it became dehydrated slowly?


The human body does not "adapt" to a shortage of water.

Water can do nothing for you sitting in a canteen.

Many people who die from dehydration are found with water in their canteens reasoning that way.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 13:13:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')he analogy is flawed. I already explained.


That's a cop out and you know it.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 13:15:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')he analogy is flawed. I already explained.


That's a cop out and you know it.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 13:27:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')he analogy is flawed. I already explained.


That's a cop out and you know it.

No, your analogy is flawed.


Please explain how it is flawed.
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 13:46:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') agree with joewp, because it is not a little plastic boat. It is a complex system with many niches.


Where would you hide in a sinking boat to avoid both making a choice and drowning?

Or, where would you hide on an overpopulated earth to avoid reducing the population and still be a survivor?
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 14:15:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'l') never said anything about avoiding reducing the population. That would be trying to dominate and control nature, which is foolish.


You agreed with joe about finding a isolated niche on the boat where it was safe from facing the converging catastrophes. Isn't that avoiding the decision?
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Re: Life and Death

Postby TheTurtle » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 19:04:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ')A boat is a small, simple, man made construct. The planet is a large, complex system that has evolved over time, and has diverse niches all over the place. To compare it to a lifeboat is extreme oversimplification.


True indeed. Consider the recently discovered orange-faced honeyeater bird, for example. There are a lot of nooks and crannies still left in the real world. Heck, I've walked in places that have seen very few people. One just has to wander away from the mall on occasion. There's your plastic lifeboat. :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'A')s our global infrastructure fails the world will become a much bigger place again, thankfully.
Indeed. :)
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Re: Life and Death

Postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 19:06:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') don't believe it is my place or within my power to make decisions about global human population.


So, you deny the responsibility. Ok.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he planet is a large, complex system that has evolved over time, and has diverse niches all over the place. To compare it to a lifeboat is extreme oversimplification.


It still has a carrying capacity and the ability to be overloaded and lose it's ability to support us.

We either choose to lighten the boat and prevent new people coming on board or the tenuous carrying capacity of the boat is soon swamped with the first wave.
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