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There is no future!

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 14:21:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') popular movie these days is "The Secret." It claims that we create our own reality. Good luck with that. You take yours; I'll stick with mine.


Sorry Mark - I do not watch network TV or go to Movies, so I can't help you on the movie critique.

And the reality is life is hard - It always has been and we have had it easy for the last 50 or 60 yrs. We are simply going to begin to experience more hardship.
Last edited by clueless on Tue 07 Aug 2007, 14:24:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 14:23:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'c')lueless wrote: "There are no techno-fixes, just ways to use resources more wisely and efficiently."

This is only part of the problem. Whether or not there are no techno-fixes, no matter how wisely you use resources, you will still, eventually, use them up!

Options:
a) only use a small portion of a renewable resource, with no more usage allowed until it (the resource) renews itsself.
b) use no resources-just plants for food, fallen tree limbs and caves, etc., for shelter
c) use renewable resources, but only those required by such a very small, static human population that there is no waiting-for-renewing time required
d) move off-world because this planet has badly abused and contaminated.
e)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')This is only part of the problem. Whether or not there are no techno-fixes, no matter how wisely you use resources, you will still, eventually, use them up!

a) only use a small portion of a renewable resource, with no more usage allowed until it (the resource) renews itsself.

This is a universal truth and has been since the beginning of time -You are not telling me anything new.

The rest of what you said is also true, and yes we will face the consequences.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby HEADER_RACK » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 14:34:02

We are down 28 to nothing. It's the fourth quarter and the two minute warning just went off.

Nothing we can do as a team can win the game.

As a single player though you still might have the chance to walk away as MVP and though the team lost you as a player are able to win.
Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 14:39:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are down 28 to nothing. It's the fourth quarter and the two minute warning just went off.


Sorry - But someone who compares life to a football game could not be considered as an accurate source of information, Let alone a prediction on future events.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby mkwin » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 15:47:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', 'A')nother lovely thread.

Here it is in simple terms:

-exponential growth
-overshoot
-dieoff


An perfect example of the simplistic reductionism nonsense that sets this site far below the quality of The Oil Drum.

If you wondered why Peak Oil.com wasn't involved in the NPC report consultation like The Oil Drum and ASPO etc were, well this is it.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 16:42:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'I')t should also be noted that agricultural yields were also greatly enhanced by genetically modified crops. It's not all about the mechanisation of the process.

Food supply is not the only issue relevant to overshoot and dieoff.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ie-off will occur, in a greater degree that it is already occurring, in parts of Asia but mainly Africa. Africa’s population is expected to double between now and 2050.

They will not manage to double population by 2050.
Nature will strike faster.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is sad but it also makes me angry. Why can't these people just have 2 children? Is it really sensible to have 5 children when you live in abject poverty? Stemming the population growth in the third world is a number 1 international priority.

That is easy to answer.
The more children they have, the more food aid they are receiving.
Food aid must stop and hopelessly unsustainable areas must be cordoned off and left to Nature.
Doing otherwise creates more misery then needs to be.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the developed world, we are largely at a stable population, in many cases we have the opposite problem i.e. shrinking populations, eg Russia and Japan.

Russia is experiencing dieoff in mild form.
It would be great if we can experience similar kind of dieoff in the future.
That can be managed and life will go on.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby Jack » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 16:55:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VinceG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')ell said, Mark.


"Well said"?

You actually believe that this outburst contained useful information or some brilliant insight that a lot of other people (like me :oops: ) seem to have missed?


I found it to be a delightfully realistic assessment of the situation. Refreshing in its candor, insightful in its premises, uplifting in its clarity.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VinceG', '
')What would you suggest? Immediately abandon all strategies for alternative energy, because "there are too many damn people" anyway?


Heavens no! The inane pursuit of alternatives drains the public treasury and puts money into the corporate economy. That makes me money. So, by all means, we should go after every possible alternative.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VinceG', '
')I mean, it is perfectly alright if you are so depressed that your only options seems to wait behind your computer for the world to collapse...but please don't ridicule those who are actually trying to do something for a better future. We need great thinkers, technicians, optimist.....not a bunch of prozac-swallowing doomsters...


But I'm not depressed. I neither need nor desire prozac. I merely contemplate the demise of hosts of people and I get a big, happy smile on my face every time. No wonder folks think I'm always cheerful - 'cause I am!

8)

Perspective, friend VinceG, perspective. It's all how you look at things.
Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn! [smilie=new_popcornsmiley.gif]
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Re: There is no future!

Postby Jack » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 17:11:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')
Interesting idea....I have a question, and i am not flaming you so....You are quite likely to be amongst that 6 billion.


At some point, sure. Probably not for several years though.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')What are you waiting for exactly? Why not get it over with? You wont survive the crash. No one will. Especially in America. So why not end it now and miss out on the starvation and suffering that you "look forward to with anticipation"?


I wish to enjoy the show - the "starvation and suffering" as you put it. Obviously, I wouldn't wish to participate in those activites - but it is likely to be some years before that possibility hits.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')If you believe that this is it, the end for everyone, what are you hanging around for?


As I said earlier, to enjoy the show. Truly.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')Perhaps you delude yourself that you will survive in your bunker with your survival guide and peanut butter jars? You wont.


True. But I'll have considerable fun showing off my ammunition collection. I believe the saying is "enjoy the journey" - and so I shall.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
') Or perhaps you dont really believe the doomsday scenario........Answer honestly please because this is important....

Oh, I believe the doomsday scenario. I don't know the exact shape of the dieoff curve (nor does anyone else) and I cannot be sure of the dieoff algorithm (i.e, who dies first, who dies last), but I believe the scenario is valid.

My answers above are quite honest. Some debate exists about whether I'm a sociopath or a psychopath - some of those trained in psychology on the board lean toward the psychopath theory.

I really don't like the great majority of people. I shall enjoy the show - their messy demise - greatly. This will apply particularly to the inhabitants of the so-called third world. Surely you wouldn't want to deprive me of my fun?

I'm not sure why you regard this as important, but there you have it. Completely true, completely honest. And you'll find that other posts I've made over the years are consistent with the present writings.

8)
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Re: There is no future!

Postby mkwin » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 17:36:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')Russia is experiencing dieoff in mild form.
It would be great if we can experience similar kind of dieoff in the future.
That can be managed and life will go on.


Russia isn't experiencing Die-off. No one is starving in Russia. Japan's population will half in the next 50 years and it's nothing to do with Die-off.

The birth rate is below replacement levels in many developed countries and in the majority of European countries.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby Concerned » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 18:34:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VinceG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')ell said, Mark.


"Well said"?

You actually believe that this outburst contained useful information or some brilliant insight that a lot of other people (like me :oops: ) seem to have missed?

What would you suggest? Immediately abandon all strategies for alternative energy, because "there are too many damn people" anyway?

I mean, it is perfectly alright if you are so depressed that your only options seems to wait behind your computer for the world to collapse...but please don't ridicule those who are actually trying to do something for a better future. We need great thinkers, technicians, optimist.....not a bunch of prozac-swallowing doomsters...


Back in WWII Germany, talk of losing was labeled defeatist I guess they were the doomers back then.

Im sure the positive guys were working on the V1's and V2's bringing the next CTL plant on line happy, happy, happy do something positive.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby Concerned » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 18:47:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', '
') No one is starving in Russia. Japan's population will half in the next 50 years and it's nothing to do with Die-off.

The birth rate is below replacement levels in many developed countries and in the majority of European countries.


If there are people starving in America then my guess is that there are people starving in Russia today, especially with turbo crony capitalism they have.

Die-off I guess it depends how you define it. If you had a population that was contracting by a million a year as in Russia it's hardly a dreamland, clearly there is much hardship there lots of alcoholism etc..

Japan is very wealthy and insular (read they don't like immigration) so if their system of social organisation has come to a point where (IF current trends are sustained) their population will halve then thats well on the road to a die off, IF trends continue.

Time will tell, perhaps the looming energy crunch oil/gas will speed the process? Or will it increase population as many hands make light work and manual labor becomes more important?

Who knows time will tell. But it's not looking good. Totally different economic outlook compared to the unlimited growth paradigm of the past.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 18:57:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')ie-off I guess it depends how you define it. If you had a population that was contracting by a million a year as in Russia it's hardly a dreamland, clearly there is much hardship there lots of alcoholism etc..


What is the level of addiction in the US ?? The only difference is most of the drug addicts here drive SUV's

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Who knows time will tell. But it's not looking good. Totally different economic outlook compared to the unlimited growth paradigm of the past.


This sums it up exaclty - And some areas(both geographically and economically) will fare better than others. I work for a power generation company and we are going to be very very busy building power plants for quite some time. I would not want to be working in loan processing, real estate, car sales or airlines right now though, those have clearly seen their glory years.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby The_Setite » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 19:55:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')
Interesting idea....I have a question, and i am not flaming you so....You are quite likely to be amongst that 6 billion.


At some point, sure. Probably not for several years though.

Probably? Actually America will be hit first and worst...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')What are you waiting for exactly? Why not get it over with? You wont survive the crash. No one will. Especially in America. So why not end it now and miss out on the starvation and suffering that you "look forward to with anticipation"?


I wish to enjoy the show - the "starvation and suffering" as you put it. Obviously, I wouldn't wish to participate in those activites - but it is likely to be some years before that possibility hits.

Again, your utter reliance on oil sticks you first in line.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')If you believe that this is it, the end for everyone, what are you hanging around for?


As I said earlier, to enjoy the show. Truly.

Of course.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')Perhaps you delude yourself that you will survive in your bunker with your survival guide and peanut butter jars? You wont.


True. But I'll have considerable fun showing off my ammunition collection. I believe the saying is "enjoy the journey" - and so I shall.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
') Or perhaps you dont really believe the doomsday scenario........Answer honestly please because this is important....

Oh, I believe the doomsday scenario. I don't know the exact shape of the dieoff curve (nor does anyone else) and I cannot be sure of the dieoff algorithm (i.e, who dies first, who dies last), but I believe the scenario is valid.

My answers above are quite honest. Some debate exists about whether I'm a sociopath or a psychopath - some of those trained in psychology on the board lean toward the psychopath theory.

I really don't like the great majority of people. I shall enjoy the show - their messy demise - greatly. This will apply particularly to the inhabitants of the so-called third world. Surely you wouldn't want to deprive me of my fun?

I'm not sure why you regard this as important, but there you have it. Completely true, completely honest. And you'll find that other posts I've made over the years are consistent with the present writings.

8)

Ok. So how many people have you killed to date? If none, why not? The world is going to end so whats the problem?
FYI, psychopath and sociopath are the same thing.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby keehah » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 20:20:44

Anyone else notice the denialists getting more squirrelly lately (not only this thread or web-site)?

I'm wondering if this can be considered a change similar to entering stage 2 of truth. Although the opposition is more of an emotional override.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 20:36:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')k. So how many people have you killed to date? If none, why not? The world is going to end so whats the problem?
FYI, psychopath and sociopath are the same


Yeah - good question...
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 20:46:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nyone else notice the denialists getting more squirrelly lately (not only this thread or web-site)?

I'm wondering if this can be considered a change similar to entering stage 2 of truth. Although the opposition is more of an emotional override.


Denial of what ? Are you the source of all truth ? Other than these ridiculous doomer buzzwords you throw around you guys have revealed no indepth information.


Do you know everything ? (I hope you answer honestly).

And could it be since you do not know everything, that some other type of future may exist (other than the one you are envisioning) ?

Sorry to say Keehah, you bother me about as much as a piece of gum stuck to the bottom of my shoe - and the reality (I believe) is you are the one who cannot handle the truth, and that is why you wallow in your own scenario of how things will pan out.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby OnceFueled » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 20:51:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '
')Denial of what ? Are you the source of all truth ? Other than these ridiculous doomer buzzwords you throw around you guys have revealed no indepth information.


Clueless, you REALLY need to read more and talk less. You won't sound so... clueless.
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Re: There is no future!

Postby Jack » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 20:52:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Setite', '
')Ok. So how many people have you killed to date? If none, why not? The world is going to end so whats the problem?


1) None.

2) Because it's illegal to do so. And I am very careful to obey the law.

3) The world will end at some point - but it's best to be comfortable in the meantime. Breaking laws is counterproductive to that objective.

8)
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Re: There is no future!

Postby clueless » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 21:22:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')lueless, you REALLY need to read more and talk less. You won't sound so... clueless.


A perfect example of what I am talking about, you throw out a stupid acolayde and make a (what you think is) funny remark - I will debate you (and I am not a cornuccopian) on any energy related subject you wish. But the reality is you and your doomer buddies have no idea how things are going to pan out in the future - So all this fruitless debate is nothing other than pointless...

And for the record the I believe the USA is going down economically, but I don't think that is a bad thing. There is too much profilagte waste here...
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Re: There is no future!

Postby OnceFueled » Tue 07 Aug 2007, 22:55:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')lueless, you REALLY need to read more and talk less. You won't sound so... clueless.


A perfect example of what I am talking about, you throw out a stupid acolayde and make a (what you think is) funny remark - I will debate you (and I am not a cornuccopian) on any energy related subject you wish. But the reality is you and your doomer buddies have no idea how things are going to pan out in the future - So all this fruitless debate is nothing other than pointless...

And for the record the I believe the USA is going down economically, but I don't think that is a bad thing. There is too much profilagte waste here...
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