[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'W')ell said, Mark.

The cornucopians have become a tedious lot. There are too many people. The demise of about 6 billion people is something I look forward to with keen anticipation.

[mkwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd do you realize how little oil actually goes into agriculture?

We're talking about a number in the low single digits of million barrels per day.

I have a hard time believing that in 10 years, farmers won't have enough fuel to run their tractors but hummer drivers will be able to freely roam the highways.

Food prices will increase, farmers will see increased revenue, and pump that extra money into buying more fuel for their tractors.

Farm yields in the developed world will not drop to 19th century levels because of a fuel shortage. The market is too efficient for that to happen.

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the developed world, we are largely at a stable population, in many cases we have the opposite problem i.e. shrinking populations, eg Russia and Japan.

[mkwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Just a question - Europeans consume 1/3 the oil we do and still live a pretty good life - We could easily cut our consumption by 1/3 and although the economy would tank, most would probably survive, which would free up vast amounts of resources.

[dhfenton]

Ya, I have to agree. Our problem is the automobile above all else. I have a sister-in-law who complained to me about her cost of gasoline. I figured out that she drive over 400 miles per week. She lives 6 miles from her job. The problem is not that she uses gas for necessary transportation, its that she uses her freaking car constantly for bullshit reasons. The enemy here is "big transportation", and our economy is irrationally dependant on it. Once the oil shortage breaks the back of big transportation, then we might see some common sense evolve.

I also agree that our farmers will have the energy they need to produce food. Our government is not going to let people get hungry; because when they get hungry, they get pissed, and once pissed they would have no problem taking the government down.

The real problem is going to be keeping the US government from using the military to take over oil lands. If they do that, then other powers have no choice but to react, and all hell breaks loose.

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n many places, Europeans have a higher standard of living than Amercians.

As you say, oil consumption does not equal living standards. If the entire US car fleet was plug-in hybrid and you were consuming, say, 7 million bbd less oil your trade deficit would be far less and consequently the US would be in a much better economic situation.

[Niagara]

Another lovely thread.

Here it is in simple terms:

-exponential growth
-overshoot
-dieoff

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')a, I have to agree. Our problem is the automobile above all else. I have a sister-in-law who complained to me about her cost of gasoline. I figured out that she drive over 400 miles per week. She lives 6 miles from her job. The problem is not that she uses gas for necessary transportation, its that she uses her freaking car constantly for bullshit reasons. The enemy here is "big transportation", and our economy is irrationally dependant on it. Once the oil shortage breaks the back of big transportation, then we might see some common sense evolve.

[Tyler_JC]

I'm going to a Sustainable South Shore meeting tonight where the topic of discussion will be reducing residential energy consumption and reducing our carbon footprint.

I'll write up a report and post it on the forum tomorrow.

It is possible to reduce energy consumption without harming the economy and in fact, the renewable energy and efficiency industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the world.

Sitting around on one's laptop and whining about the end of the world is popular but it doesn't have any impact on the situation.

"Lead, Follow, Or Get Out Of The Way."

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', 'A')nother lovely thread.

Here it is in simple terms:

-exponential growth
-overshoot
-dieoff

[OnceFueled]

All hail the techno-fixes!

Good luck with that...

We are so far into overshoot that we are running on nothing but momentum. The more people refuse to acknowledge that, the more interia we will have when it finally cannot be denied.

I would love to save the world with some amazing free-energy machine that causes the re-writing of thermodynamics... but I'm busy planting a garden.

The most productive thing I can do for me and my family is to avoid the die-off... to do everything I can to put us in the tiny minority that makes it and contibutes to whatever is exposed after the dust settles.

Refusing to process available facts because you don't like the conclusion is just plain silly.

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'I')s there anybody who isn't going to die ? Let's have a show of hands, who isn't going to die ?

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ll hail the techno-fixes!

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'I')s there anybody who isn't going to die ? Let's have a show of hands, who isn't going to die ?

[OnceFueled]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '
')
<snip>

There are no techno-fixes, just ways to use resources more wisely and efficiently.

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'W')hat difference does it make ?

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('OnceFueled', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '
')
<snip>

There are no techno-fixes, just ways to use resources more wisely and efficiently.

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'W')hat difference does it make ?

[Ferretlover]

clueless wrote: "There are no techno-fixes, just ways to use resources more wisely and efficiently."

This is only part of the problem. Whether or not there are no techno-fixes, no matter how wisely you use resources, you will still, eventually, use them up!

Options:
a) only use a small portion of a renewable resource, with no more usage allowed until it (the resource) renews itsself.
b) use no resources-just plants for food, fallen tree limbs and caves, etc., for shelter
c) use renewable resources, but only those required by such a very small, static human population that there is no waiting-for-renewing time required
d) move off-world because this planet has badly abused and contaminated.
e)

[mark]

Dear clueless,

I can only conclude that you've chosen an appropriate acronym..

I've also realized that's it's impossible to persuade anyone of anything; so I'll not try. Truthfully, I'm not even sure I've persuaded myself of everything I've said.

A popular movie these days is "The Secret." It claims that we create our own reality. Good luck with that. You take yours; I'll stick with mine.