[mark]

Can the rich survive, even thrive, the end of oil? Well, they always have in the past, why, because money and power offer more options. Some move to where they see greater opportunity, like Jim Rodgers, the investor, who’s chosen Singapore. Others choose to circle the wagons, which is what I see happening within the lower 48. When the rich circle their wagons, they’ll need serfs to do the actual work. Fortunately, for them, there are plenty of people who will gladly proffer their allegiance in exchange for a chance at the crumbs, after all, it's what they've been doing for centuries since the last collapse.

Of course, the real question is how sudden the collapse comes. In 2000, England experienced a taste of collapse when a truckers strike depleted store shelves and gas supplies in a few days. It lasted just a short time but does provide a clue to what can happen. If that is in our future then yes, I’ll agree that all, rich included, will fall into the black pit.

[Blacksmith]

Now is the present!

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'A')fter reading the NG article on the Maya, i'm starting to think you might be right on no one escaping. In their case they all pretty much disappeared.

[TreebeardsUncle]

Expect conditions will be fairly mild and even boring to the gloom patrol that inhabits this board.

[jboogy]

beautiful animal eli,I got a tennessee walker named Suge,He's a big ,silly luv bug.But he can't fly.....yet!

[skeptik]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')But then, it's been suggested by many that I'm a sociopath - a title I wear with pride.

[SILENTTODD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I')'ve long disagreed with the idea that the rich will be able to buy their way out of the consequences of a ravaged Earth.

The experience of what it is to be rich will be radically redefined . . . downward.

Remember in "Soylent Green" when a stick of celery was considered an outrageous luxury?

Yes, there will still be unequal distribution of wealth, but when the Earth itself is severely impoverished, there will be less for the rich, too.

A rising tide lifts all boats, but the opposite is also true!

[Heineken]

The pie can be divided only so many times, and so many ways. Especially a SHRINKING pie.

I also don't buy this idea that the poor can be pushed around forever, no matter how bad conditions get.

Ultimate power rests in the hands of the masses, not the rich minority. Yes, the masses have sheep-like qualities, but once they start to panic and stampede, watch out.

The rich learned that lesson in Russia and France.

[Cloud9]

Mary Chesnut, the real Scarlet O’Hara owned seven plantations and over 1,000 slaves. At the end of the Civil War, she found her self living in the chimney of one of her burned out homes. She went into business with one of her former slaves selling eggs just to survive. People adapt.

[MalcolmV]

Diamond in Collapse said that being one of the elite in the Greenland Norse colony merely meant that you were the last to starve.

[gg3]

First of all, the enormous spread in wealth that presently exists, is a side-effect of a stored energy economy with cheap energy sources.

There is no way to replace oil with slaves or serfs. It can't be done; the energy density of oil is too high. For example, a typical mid-sized excavator used in mining operations, has an engine in the range of about 900 to 1,800 horsepower. A typical human can put out about 1/4 horsepower continuously, and 1/3 to 1/2 horsepower in brief bursts.

Thus it would take 3,600 to 7,200 humans to equal the output of that one power shovel, not counting the additional 500 hp. quarry truck (2,000 humans) to haul the stuff from the mine to the mill. In fact the typical ratio is more like four quarry trucks for each shovel... so now we have 8,000 humans hauling the stuff from the pit to the mill...

Do similar calculations for combine harvesters and other agricultural equipment.

Bottom line is, when the poo hits the propeller, everyone gets it in the face.

There may be isolated neofeudal fiefdoms, but the elite in those societies are going to be living like the lower middle classes of today, if they're lucky.

There will also be pockets of representative democracy and free enterprise, with a higher level of generalized prosperity ("the profit motive: it's for everybody") though with their most fortunate members still having to do an honest day's work rather than relying on slaveys.

And there'll be a good range in between, as well as places that are Taliban-like theocracies in miniature, and places that are micro-monarchies (oh boy! a new neologism! "micro-monarchies"!), and places that are tiny anarchist syndicates and communist collectivities and all of it. Everything we've seen through history will be replicated in the future, on fractal scales from the tiny village to the city-state.

Your mission is to put yourself in the place that will develop into the kind of society in which you personally want to live, and then to develop for yourself a useful niche using your available skills or new skills you start learning ASAP.

[NotMyBlood]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')he pie can be divided only so many times, and so many ways. Especially a SHRINKING pie.

I also don't buy this idea that the poor can be pushed around forever, no matter how bad conditions get.

Ultimate power rests in the hands of the masses, not the rich minority. Yes, the masses have sheep-like qualities, but once they start to panic and stampede, watch out.

The rich learned that lesson in Russia and France.

[Smudger]

Getty once said if at midnight everyone in the world had equal share of the total money by early afternoon the next day someone would be bankrupt. he was right and the only really issue is the size of the cake. to my mind it is telling that the for most developed countries the concept of "poverty" in the real sense of the world as fallen away somewhat. In the UK for instance I believe the discussion is currently revolving around whether a lack of a tv in each bedroom is a sign of poverty.! I which case i live in poverty as I wont allow them in my room.

i do detect a hidden "its not fair some people have a lot of money" theme running through a lot of the sites, implying in some way that peak oil, climte change is all the rich peoples fault! Then if these same rich people start driving priuss' or recycling and buying local food its "are well they can afford to can't they" we should never envy what other people have if they have earned it.

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Smudger', 'w')e should never envy what other people have if they have earned it.

[NotMyBlood]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Smudger', 'w')e should never envy what other people have if they have earned it.

[Heineken]

Malcolm V makes an excellent point.

The super-rich don't earn their money, they extort it. Or are simply given it.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')Ultimate power rests in the hands of the masses, not the rich minority. Yes, the masses have sheep-like qualities, but once they start to panic and stampede, watch out.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'Y')ou will not win a battle wielding your handgun against helicopter gunship...

[jedinvest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')...so now they are better armed.
You will not win a battle wielding your handgun against helicopter gunship...

I doubt that revolutions stand great chance to succeed in post PO world.
Neofeudal slavery is in store.

[NotMyBlood]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')Ultimate power rests in the hands of the masses, not the rich minority. Yes, the masses have sheep-like qualities, but once they start to panic and stampede, watch out.