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Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy anymore

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby HEADER_RACK » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 09:30:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whereagles', 'H')eader_rack, my job sits in the middle of a densly populated area. Everybody can cycle there. In a post peak scenario, local food production will be too important for the school to be shut down.


Densly populated area... local food poduction.. Now normaly these two things don't go hand in hand,but regardless of that I'm willing to play lets connect the dots again.

Ok everyone is riding bicycles. Does your town have an Aluminum manufacturing plant ? Does it have the natural resources to produce the aluminum? Does it have a bicycle manufacturing plant? Distribution center? Tires this is a good one lots of things are needed to make tires for those bikes. Does your town have all the resources to make and produce the tires?
You are going to be teaching people how to farm. I'm sure the will need hand tools to do that job, unless they will be digging in the dirt with their fingernails. Need a shovel or a hoe? Do you have a logging industry in your town? Handles are made from wood. Saw mill to process the fallen timber. Manufacturing center to turn the lumber into a handle. Do you have an iron mine in your town the spade is usualy made from iron. Do you have a steel plant? Have to convert the iron ore into usable steel. You need all of that plus the stuff that suppourts those industries and all we did was get you a bicycle and a hoe or shovel.
Getting the big picture yet? You can not turn a system of complication into a system of simplicity and expect it to work like it always did before.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby BigArnie » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 09:42:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'Y')ou don't live in Africa any more than I do. You're as American as apple pie.

What an obvious troll...

Oh really? I'll prove you wrong but you'd have to make it worth my while. How 'bout a friendly little bet on the side? Say a hundred bucks? Are we on? I take PayPal, BTW. I'll post prove right here.

OTOH my offer still stands. Come over to my place and I'll show you the sights and sounds of Africa like CNN only wish they could! Please remember to bring some of your mama's homemade apple pie.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Eli » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 09:56:39

Yeah come visit wonderful Africa it is such a lovely place.

Come visit Darfur in the Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Rwanda, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, and the Congo.

All just wonderful places really, We westerners have no concept of how truly wonderful the continent of Africa is.

And the paradise that is South Africa has murder rate 8 times the world average.
Last edited by Eli on Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:27:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Zardoz » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:04:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigArnie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'Y')ou don't live in Africa any more than I do. You're as American as apple pie.

What an obvious troll...

Oh really? I'll prove you wrong but you'd have to make it worth my while. How 'bout a friendly little bet on the side? Say a hundred bucks? Are we on? I take PayPal, BTW. I'll post prove right here.

OTOH my offer still stands. Come over to my place and I'll show you the sights and sounds of Africa like CNN only wish they could! Please remember to bring some of your mama's homemade apple pie.

Why all the wise-ass bullshit? Why don't you just tell us exactly where you are, and give us some detailed information that only the long resident of a specific African city or town would be able to give us?

Why the kid-stuff games?
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby BigArnie » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:10:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'Y')eah come visit wonderful Africa it such a lovely place.

Come visit Darfur in the Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Rwanda, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, and the Congo.

All just wonderful places really, We westerners have no concept how truly wonderful the continent of Africa is.

And the paradise that is South Africa has murder rate 8 times the world average.

Um, where exactly did I say that it is such a wonderful place? Read carefully and you'll see that I didn't. No, dude, this place is a sh*thole of note.

Having said that, I'll emphasise again that you Americans (in general) have got no clue about how Africa works and what the likely implications of PO is / will be on this continent. Frankly you cannot be blamed for your lack of understanding because your society works in a vastly different way from ours and your only exposure to Africa is the media which does not portray a very accurate picture at all.

Heck, I'll extend my invitation to Zardoz to include you as well. Come and have a look for yourseld. I won't charge you a penny. But you have to hurry before I get murdered. LMAO!
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby BigArnie » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:14:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'W')hy all the wise-ass bullshit? Why don't you just tell us exactly where you are, and give us some detailed information that only the long resident of a specific African city or town would be able to give us?

Why the kid-stuff games?

Dude, you're the one that called me a liar. Don't you think that the ball is now in your court?
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby whereagles » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:21:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', '
')1. Local food does not grow inside a classroom, as shocking as it may sound for an a agricultural teacher.

2. You probably teach (I hope I'm wrong) that food is produced, not grown, and there is quite a mentality difference in that.

3. Love for the land vs. love for production. The whole food production system depends mostlly on oil right now (and government money), from seeds engineered in special labs to transportation. You may play a keyrole in the future, but I guess that keyrole won't be happening in campus.

4. I'm curious, what do you think about GM food?


1. No shit sherlock :)

2. I actually teach maths, physics and statistics.

3. Tractors at school run on biodiesel from the canteen's waste oil. That cut the school's diesel invoice by 50%. We got plans to recycle more stuff into biodiesel, ethanol and methane. That goes to say that eventhough the world runs on oil, it is possible to do more with less of it.

4. I myself got no strong opinion. Biologist colleagues mostly say each case to its own.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby whereagles » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:28:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'O')k everyone is riding bicycles. Does your town have an Aluminum manufacturing plant ? Does it have the natural resources to produce the aluminum? Does it have a bicycle manufacturing plant? Distribution center? Tires this is a good one lots of things are needed to make tires for those bikes. Does your town have all the resources to make and produce the tires?
You are going to be teaching people how to farm. I'm sure the will need hand tools to do that job, unless they will be digging in the dirt with their fingernails. Need a shovel or a hoe? Do you have a logging industry in your town? Handles are made from wood. Saw mill to process the fallen timber. Manufacturing center to turn the lumber into a handle. Do you have an iron mine in your town the spade is usualy made from iron. Do you have a steel plant? Have to convert the iron ore into usable steel. You need all of that plus the stuff that suppourts those industries and all we did was get you a bicycle and a hoe or shovel.
Getting the big picture yet? You can not turn a system of complication into a system of simplicity and expect it to work like it always did before.


While you're right that today stuff is all interconnected, I pretty much disagree with your claim that life isn't possible without oil.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby HEADER_RACK » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 10:49:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whereagles', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'O')k everyone is riding bicycles. Does your town have an Aluminum manufacturing plant ? Does it have the natural resources to produce the aluminum? Does it have a bicycle manufacturing plant? Distribution center? Tires this is a good one lots of things are needed to make tires for those bikes. Does your town have all the resources to make and produce the tires?
You are going to be teaching people how to farm. I'm sure the will need hand tools to do that job, unless they will be digging in the dirt with their fingernails. Need a shovel or a hoe? Do you have a logging industry in your town? Handles are made from wood. Saw mill to process the fallen timber. Manufacturing center to turn the lumber into a handle. Do you have an iron mine in your town the spade is usualy made from iron. Do you have a steel plant? Have to convert the iron ore into usable steel. You need all of that plus the stuff that suppourts those industries and all we did was get you a bicycle and a hoe or shovel.
Getting the big picture yet? You can not turn a system of complication into a system of simplicity and expect it to work like it always did before.


While you're right that today stuff is all interconnected, I pretty much disagree with your claim that life isn't possible without oil.


I never said life isn't possible without oil.
I do believe however that today's life is impossible without oil.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Zardoz » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 11:24:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigArnie', 'D')ude, you're the one that called me a liar. Don't you think that the ball is now in your court?

You're as transparent as a sheet of glass.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby NotMyBlood » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 11:35:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigArnie', 'D')ude, you're the one that called me a liar. Don't you think that the ball is now in your court?

You're as transparent as a sheet of glass.


We were discussing the problems in Africa and how Western countries/people deal with those problems.

BigArnie, you make a statement like "westerns have no idea" (you are probably right) but then you dont go into any detail? Please tell us what we have no idea about? Were here to exchange information, not brag about "being in the shit". Hey, if you get a kick out of being in the shit - more power to you.

But really, educate us. You live there. Tell us what the media is distorting. Tell us the "ins and outs" of the situation. A paragraph or two shouldnt take too long.....
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby BigArnie » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 11:41:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'Y')ou're as transparent as a sheet of glass.

Are you backing down, Bud? You called me a liar and a troll. I said put your money where your mouth is. You start beating around the bush. Should I take it that you owe me a hundred bucks?
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby kevincarter » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 12:08:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigArnie', '
')
Having said that, I'll emphasise again that you Americans (in general) have got no clue about how Africa works and what the likely implications of PO is / will be on this continent. Frankly you cannot be blamed for your lack of understanding because your society works in a vastly different way from ours and your only exposure to Africa is the media which does not portray a very accurate picture at all.


It could be said that you Africans (in general) have got no clue about how the West works.... Frankly you cannot be blamed for your lack of understanding because your society works in a vastly different way from ours and your only exposure to the West is the media [and your friends and relatives in the west] which does not portray a very accurate picture at all.

Having said that, it is quite suspicious that you have anything to say about Africa and all the things we got wrong about it and still won't say anything. There can only be one reson for that: you are a liar or we are right about Africa. Or both.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Eli » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 12:22:03

Countdown to BigArnies banishment 10..9..8..

I will bet you a million dollars that you are nothing but a useless ignorant internet troll, just wire the money to my Nigerian Bank account and I will prove it.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby NotMyBlood » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:09:39

sometimes I think we should firebomb the place just to get rid of the "scam artists" from nigeria and other places. What kills me is that there are people who actually fall for their stupid broken english scams.....
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Starvid » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:24:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '.')..
We already pay about $7 a gallon. We could pay double without pain if the price increases incrementally over a couple of years.


That may be true but....

You get most of the money back in the form of government services. Lets assume gas costs $2 and taxes are $5 / gallon. If you didn't pay that $5 tax you would of had to pay taxes in other areas either that or make do with less government services. What did you lose? --> nothing.

PO will be different. When fuel costs rise your money will go to some weird person who lives in a palace in the Middle East.....instead of those wonderful public transit systems I keep on hearing about in Europe. :lol:
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True, but a $ given to the government is not the same as getting a $ of services back, due to the inherent inefficiency of our government.

Still, your point stands.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby Starvid » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:26:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', ' ')We already pay about $7 a gallon. We could pay double without pain if the price increases incrementally over a couple of years.


Good lord! What ever happened to critical thinking?

Care to rethink that statement?

Well, we spent more than twice as much of our income on energy and oil 30 years ago, and that didn't kill us. And if you get a few years it's not hard at all to radically reduce your energy use or deploy substitutes. Real oil prices are a little lower now compared to then, and we have doubled our income and reduced our oil use by about 40-45 %. So the oil bill doesn't bite very hard anymore.

This might be hard to understand for an American as pretty much all the economic growth you have had in the last 30 years has been captured by the top 20 % in general, the top 1 % in particular and the top 0,01 % even more.

Not so here.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby NotMyBlood » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:35:25

Well, I know alot of american taxes go to Oil Infrastructure and maintenance and god knows what else....I dont know the exact figure or breakdown...

However, as an "almost" upper middle class american(i make a pretty good living compartively; and im single no kids) I can tell you 14 dollars a gallon is going to hurt. Now, take my cousin who has 2 kids, a lower income and it just might put her out of business....
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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby kevincarter » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:35:50

And for all of you who wondered:

Image

What is an Internet Troll / Forum troll?
* An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

A classic CureZone troll is trying to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.

While he tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate science.


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Re: Here's what happens when you can't afford the energy any

Unread postby NotMyBlood » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 13:39:23

Nice definition; But I have to admit, sometimes its nice just to stir things up. Makes the thread more interesting.
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