just another sign of short term thinking:
The hospital I work at went to emergency power (provided by large diesel powered generators) for six hours a couple of days ago to relieve the local energy provider (Excel) of the power load.
What does it mean when we are willing to burn diesel (relatively inefficient) instead of coal? I wish I knew the details of the transaction. Did Excel pay for the diesel we burned? Even if we get a bulk discount I bet it runs 2.50 a gallon. And how many gallons did we go through? Enough to drive a long distance I am sure!!
And it is my thought that electrical power is not our number one problem (I would say we have a liquid fuel problem). Is anyone else seeing evidence of short-term thinking?
PeakOil is You
Report of Short-term energy fix
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Report of Short-term energy fix
by wisconsin_cur » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 08:31:50
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by Twilight » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 10:35:55
It is more complicated than just "short term thinking". The event itself isn't. The context is.
What would happen if you didn't relieve the utility of that load? Wider system issues. Anything from local excession of thermal ratings and protection tripping to system frequency and load flow problems. Or maybe something else, like freeing up capacity on one circuit so they can switch over the load from another, isolate it and carry out emergency maintenance.
We have a liquid fuel problem, but the consequences of power failure are far worse even if you believe the fundamentals to be more healthy. What happened there was a pure operational issue, nothing to do with fundamentals. A sacrifical pawn is not evidence of short term thinking, quite on the contrary.
However.
The context demonstrates short term thinking in the power domain as a whole. The fact that an operational issue forced a hospital to run on an emergency generator, is evidence of long-term failure of planning. And now everyone is scrambling to carry out the necessary capital investment in an era of high energy prices, so material costs are through the roof and everyone is wishing they had done it during the 90s instead of banking the profits.
That's short-term thinking.
With that in mind, unfortunately the event you describe is always going to be the lesser of two evils.
What would happen if you didn't relieve the utility of that load? Wider system issues. Anything from local excession of thermal ratings and protection tripping to system frequency and load flow problems. Or maybe something else, like freeing up capacity on one circuit so they can switch over the load from another, isolate it and carry out emergency maintenance.
We have a liquid fuel problem, but the consequences of power failure are far worse even if you believe the fundamentals to be more healthy. What happened there was a pure operational issue, nothing to do with fundamentals. A sacrifical pawn is not evidence of short term thinking, quite on the contrary.
However.
The context demonstrates short term thinking in the power domain as a whole. The fact that an operational issue forced a hospital to run on an emergency generator, is evidence of long-term failure of planning. And now everyone is scrambling to carry out the necessary capital investment in an era of high energy prices, so material costs are through the roof and everyone is wishing they had done it during the 90s instead of banking the profits.
That's short-term thinking.
With that in mind, unfortunately the event you describe is always going to be the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by frankthetank » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 13:13:57
That was probably that very hot day. I noticed the paper had an article stating that was the second highest usage of all time (last July had a day that is number 1). I wonder if Xcel and Gunderson/St FranciS? have some sort of deal so then Xcel doesn't have to buy from others or fire up additional capacity? I'm guessing a hospital generator has to be one heck of a beast. The question is how long could the hospital operate with just the fuel on hand? Probably not more then a few days.
lawns should be outlawed.
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by Ferretlover » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 13:32:09
Question: Wouldn't it be more practical for places like hospitals, police stations, etc have a source like solar power as an alternative power source? Or, some power source that doesn't depend on something that has to be transported?
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by Twilight » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 14:53:57
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'Q')uestion: Wouldn't it be more practical for places like hospitals, police stations, etc have a source like solar power as an alternative power source? Or, some power source that doesn't depend on something that has to be transported?
Only if the footprint is the same as a diesel.
Nothing else has the footprint of a diesel. Not even close. Liquid fuel is the best energy density you can get. Best bang for volume. Beats any battery system.
I've been in places like data centers, you should see a typical 1 MW diesel generator. Talk about compact. Try putting 1 MW of PV, batteries and inverter into a shipping container. It will never happen.
The other problem with PV is if you need it over several days over the full 24 hour periods, you have to be powering the facility during the day and storing enough power for the night, guaranteed even in the most unfavourable weather conditions. For example, power loss during a week of winter storms. It's funny how the system could be put to the test under conditions least favourable to its proper operation.
The alternative is topping up battery storage for several days of continuous operation. Big expensive building! And chances are, you will have to continually replace the stuff, whereas a diesel generator can sit there for decades with a bit of maintenance.
Wind gives you an even bigger headache. Similar battery storage requirements, more intensive maintenance (and at height!), and in the winter storm power loss scenario, the blades would be feathered and battery top-up would be zero.
Whichever way we look at it, diesel is the best solution to the backup power problem. It would make perfect sense if we weren't wasting it in 3 litre engine saloon cars.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'T')he question is how long could the hospital operate with just the fuel on hand? Probably not more then a few days.
Typical fuel capacity is for 72-100 hours at max load for most applications, even the most critical (more critical than hospitals). I guess the logic is if you haven't fixed the problem after three days, your problems are bigger than a lack of power. Which indeed they would be, if a city in its entirety lost power for more than 4 days.
By the way, it's nice to know the thing started up. That's no guarantee if the estates department neglect it, which some do.
There's that growth thing as well. A lot of places are plugging in more and more electronics, not realising the big emergency box someone put in 10, 20 years ago isn't growing to compensate. That's always a wake-up call.
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by Ferretlover » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 15:19:46
Thank you Gideon & Twilight for explaining the problem with solar power, et al.
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by vision-master » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 15:21:29
Business works with the power companies. When building demand gets too high, the power company calls & the consumer sheds power to stay under a pre-determed demand. The generators make up the difference.
The same thing is done with NG during real cold spells. The NG supplier calls and the building switches from NG to burning oil for heating. It's been that way for many decades.
The same thing is done with NG during real cold spells. The NG supplier calls and the building switches from NG to burning oil for heating. It's been that way for many decades.
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by whereagles » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 19:27:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'W')hichever way we look at it, diesel is the best solution to the backup power problem. It would make perfect sense if we weren't wasting it in 3 litre engine saloon cars.
Well, on the plus side, we could probably get around emergencies with bit of biodiesel coming from the hospital's canteen waste veggie oil
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Re: Report of Short-term energy fix
by wisconsin_cur » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 02:13:29
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever.
The context demonstrates short term thinking in the power domain as a whole. The fact that an operational issue forced a hospital to run on an emergency generator, is evidence of long-term failure of planning. And now everyone is scrambling to carry out the necessary capital investment in an era of high energy prices, so material costs are through the roof and everyone is wishing they had done it during the 90s instead of banking the profits.
The context demonstrates short term thinking in the power domain as a whole. The fact that an operational issue forced a hospital to run on an emergency generator, is evidence of long-term failure of planning. And now everyone is scrambling to carry out the necessary capital investment in an era of high energy prices, so material costs are through the roof and everyone is wishing they had done it during the 90s instead of banking the profits.
Re-reading my post I realize that I said it poorly but this was my overall point.
I wish I could find out exactly how much juice we pull down an hour and how many gallons of diesel we use when on emergency power. There are a lot of lights, fridges, magnetically locked doors, computers, etc in this place.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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