[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'W')ow! Lou had all guns firing. I think it would be smart for the three governments inolved to paint a coherent picture of just what the partnership entails. And, carrying all that corporate sponsor baggage only elicits distrust by many in the public these days, as corporate interests are not always seen as lining up with the much of the population. Don't these politicians use any common sense?

[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ome aspects make good sense, like common security elements. But, even there, I see concerns unless we adopt more common principles. For instance Canada is relatively softer on drug movement than the U.S., while Canada puts a hard line on guns crossing the border. Perhaps if Canada punished drug offenses harsher, and the U.S. (and Mexico) adopted firm gun controls these aspects could be made to work, and we could have an open border for movement of people, lust like Europe enjoys with the E.U.

[Sasquatch]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'P')eople can get by fine without drugs or guns.

[TheDude]

Am I the only one whose view of this (on the computer's monitor, that is) is kinda out of whack? Sasquatch's post is way off center. Maybe the mods are doing a bit of hacking.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'A')m I the only one whose view of this (on the computer's monitor, that is) is kinda out of whack? Sasquatch's post is way off center. Maybe the mods are doing a bit of hacking.

[Cloud9]

The government cannot protect you. Security is not safety. Sacrifice all of your civil liberties and you still run the risk of being murdered, raped and robed. If you believe security is safety, then take a serious look at what goes on in prisons.

[Twilight]

Denny messed up his quote tags above, that's why the window is broken. It's an annoying phpBB thing.

[Tyler_JC]

I fixed it.

As for the SPP, I don't quite understand what the big deal is.

The 3 major North American nations already have highly integrated economies.

In the future, as long distance transportation becomes more expensive, wouldn't a more integrated local economic sphere make sense?

The rest of the world is separating into trade blocs, why shouldn't we?

Different US states have different laws regarding drugs and guns, why couldn't the various members of the NAU have different policies?

Are we worried about illegal immigration? Drug-running?

And based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[threadbear]

They are paving the way to a tight trade cartel, with more political integration, as they don't trust a long term trade relationship with China.

The US simply can't have trade with China, if they are simultaneously fighting them, in proxy battles, or cold wars, for limited resources. Get ready for Mexico and the US to reindustrialize. That,btw, means a lot more domestic pollution, but more jobs--perhaps in KBR work camps

Canadians really hate the thought of this, but our countries are already so tightly merged, it won't make too much difference--with one major qualification. We will NEVER tolerate American brand fascism and policing here,( though our own neoconservatives are pushing for it).

[PeakingAroundtheCorner]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')nd based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[threadbear]

Peaking Round the Corner--Say it loud and say it proud. It's not an issue of racism or any other such nonsense. It's economic displacement, brought about by business pressures on govt. What most people don't understand is legal immigration into the US, is extremely difficult. This encourages Mexicans to hop fences, remain at large in a country that employs them, while completely disempowering them. Should they dare to complain about wages or try to organize, how far would that go?

Immigration policy is actually too strict. Reform that would turn some back to Mexico and legalize some of them, would be best, but business doesn't want that. Legalize them and they become a political force, driving wages up, across the board.

They're not in the country legally, and that can be used as a form of blackmail, for lack of better terms. Perfect for the employer; a huge army of powerless people in need of work, willing and able to work for peanuts.

[Roccland]

Careful Threadbear...independent of legal status...they HAVE been and continue to be a political force throughout the western states and California.

Last year Sheriff Joe Arpaio - here in Maricopa County AZ - was threatened to be voted out of office by 300,000 (at least) hispanic marchers on Phoenix during an immigration rally in April.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roccland', 'C')areful Threadbear...independent of legal status...they HAVE been and continue to be a political force throughout the western states and California.

Last year Sheriff Joe Arpaio - here in Maricopa County AZ - was threatened to be voted out of office by 300,000 (at least) hispanic marchers on Phoenix during an immigration rally in April.

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')And based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')And based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[Roccland]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he threat is from an army of carpenters, bus boys, construction workers, agricultural workers, factory workers, meat packing industry workers, nannies, gardeners, landscapers, cooks, etc.

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')And based on my skills, I don't see cheap Mexican manual labor as a threat to my economic well-being either.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the big threat is coming from.

[Tyler_JC]

Of course they count.

But from a purely selfish point of view, the average white collar worker gains (lower cost labor/products) while the average blue collar worker loses wages and benefits.

The heart of the economic argument is class warfare.

What is good for one group of people (employers, professionals, white collar workers government employees, consumers) is bad for another group of people (semi-skilled and unskilled labor, certain service sector employees, people in the trades, etc.).

Think of the construction industry.

1. Person purchasing a home benefits. The work will be done for far less money by illegal immigrants rather than by unionized Americans.

2. Contractor benefit. His profits are higher and his business exists only because he can keep his prices down by using cheap labor.

3. A handful of illegals benefit. They make more money in America in a month than they would have made all year in Brazil.

4. A handful of unionized Americans are harmed. They don't have a job...

Immigration is only one of the spearheads of globalization. But all of them are stabbing into American unionized workers.

[firestarter]

TJC,

I've absolutely no problem with LEGAL, democratically approved, immigration. For the most part all parties involved under that scenario come out winners.

I have a real big problem with ILLEGAL immigration. The kind given us by our plutocratic lords on high; especially subsequent to 9-11; especially, to the second power, subsequent to invading two foreign countries after to 9-11.

Even if, as you say, only a handful of individuals are "harmed" because of illegal immigration, I'm sorry but a handful is a handful too many, period. (BTW, I think a lot more than a handful are harmed--on both sides of the issue. You can read Robert Samuelson and Peter Brimelow for further clarification of this fact).

Given the fact that you are a white collar worker I can partly understand your general lack of sympathy for the "unskilled" among us, whatever that means.

But may I suggest something? Why don't you, for the sake of justice, spend some time with the great unwashed that are among us, maybe even getting your hands dirty alongside them. It would be a revelatory experience, that would change your thinking. Honest.