[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'S')o many, even most, of those people will eventually be doing something else.

[mainframe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'G')ossip columnists will have no problem adapting - gossip is a perennial human endeavor! They just might not be able to make a living at it beyond free meals.



"If you don't have anything nice to say, sit next to me."


- attributed to Dorothy Parker

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard to imagine a world so devastated that there is no longer any plumbing (plumbers), any structures that need maintenance (carpenters) or any metal objects that need to be built or repaired (welders).

[Twilight]

I always approached the subject from a slightly different angle, referring to it as "specialisation of labour"; the problem that for the first time in human history, the majority of people do not understand the majority of technologies supporting their lives. This was not the case as little as 150 years ago, when steam had not even made an impact on transport.

Of course it is true that when the supports are knocked out from beneath a highly diverse, specialised society, the majority of people are ill-equipped to cope.

I think anthropologists refer to the different niches as "social personalities", and modern industrial societies contain thousands.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') do agree with Pops, however, that those with these kinds of manual skills will probably be better able to adjust.

[Plantagenet]

That was a great article in the "NewAtlantic" Tommy Jefferson.

There are lots of ways to get some "reality" into a life filled with "abstraction" in addition to doing labor and repair jobs.

One of my favorites is fly fishing..... Get your gear and your waders and your fishing flies laid out, hike into a stream or kayak down a river, work the river and study the river to find the fish...pick the eddies and rocks...wade in the river and cast to the spot and bang! Bring it in, enjoy the moment and the river and the sun and see how beautiful the fish is, and let it go.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') do agree with Pops, however, that those with these kinds of manual skills will probably be better able to adjust.

[I_Like_Plants]

PlantedAgent - I like the put-down Dilbert did when he heard the pointy-haired boss admitted he's one of those "catch and release" sadists.

I only fished if I needed the fish to eat. I sure admired them, and I'll admit I did release fish if they were a kind I didn't want to eat (some nasty spineys are not worth the trouble). But to me fishing was part of life not a way to get away from the cubicle.

[BigTex]

I like Robert Heinlein's comment: "Specialization is for ants."

The abstract skillset that is probably going to be most valued in the future will be leadership.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') was watching a movie and during a diatribe against the world today the character mentioned a "preoccupation with abstraction" as one of the principal problems (two points to anyone who can name the film).

I think it's true that many of us have come to live almost exclusively in our "head space." We deal only in ideas, moving paper from desk to desk, working with computer screen shots, all of which are many steps removed from the actual production of products and services, and sometimes the product or service being produced is still many steps removed from a product or service that actually does anything useful.

What stops this drift toward more and more abstraction in the way we think and the mental space we occupy is when some part of the infrastructure supporting the abstract existence breaks down. Thus, when the electricity goes off or the network goes down we feel adrift, disconnected; it's a strange feeling.

PO will represent such a breakdown in the infrastructure supporting this ethereal kind of existence. It will be profoundly unsettling when people realize that in this case it's not that we don't know how to repair the machine, but rather that the machine has run out of gas and we can't afford to buy any more to refill it.

I read a science fiction story called "The Machine Stops" where an entire world was populated by people whose existence was almost entirely abstract. They essentially sat in their rooms and had a monitor in front of them where they worked, played, loved, lost...basically had the entire human experience abstractly. Then one day the supposedly perpetual motion machine that supported this world broke. No one knew how to fix it. Many went insane. The rest tried to respond, but realized they had no skills of any kind to either repair the machine or even feed themselves. In one sense they were brilliant, but only in terms of working with ideas; they had no skills for working with realities like raising food, building shelters, and creating tools.

Many people don't realize the degree to which they live in a world preoccupied with abstraction. For anyone who lives in such a world, an experience like camping can be profound because it just seems so "real" compared to the world they are used to.

The trip from the real to the abstract can be kind of fun. A person thinks to himself "my dad was a farmer and I am a banker; I'm better off than him." On the other hand, moving from a workd of abstraction to a world of reality is often considered a big step down: "I went from practicing law to working on a farm; I'm worse off."

It will be interesting to see how the dwellers in abstract worlds will fare as the infrastructure that supports the abstract world begins to come apart.

The welders, plumbers and carpenters will do fine, I think. The financial analysts, securities lawyers, image consultants and gossip columnists may have it a little rougher.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'Y')ou might enjoy this article. I did.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/crawford.htm

PDF version: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/1 ... awford.pdf

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') like Robert Heinlein's comment: "Specialization is for ants."

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'I') like Robert Heinlein's comment: "Specialization is for ants."

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'Y')ou might enjoy this article. I did.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/crawford.htm

PDF version: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/1 ... awford.pdf

[Kingcoal]

I earn my bread writing software for industrial controls which means I generally sit in front of "the machine" and make it work to the customer's satisfaction. I'm very familiar with the abstract types out there. I love to hear people talk about their accomplishments, taking credit for work done by people like me. I love it when these people are tasked to actually make something work for a customer, face to face. Needless to say, they generally fall flat on the face. The main reason why I do what I do is money - the pay is orders of magnitude higher than sitting around in a cubicle writing code. The reason for that is that there really aren't many people who can handle the real world. Most people work disconnected from their end product and like it that way.

One thing about my profession is that we receive all the blame when something goes badly and no credit when things work out. Most of the abstract types are very good at office politics. Like I said, it's great to watch these idiots out in front of a customer trying to talk their way out of their own incompetence. What's funny is that most people have no idea of how full of $hit they really are. They are full of themselves and their imagined accomplishments.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', 'Y')ou might enjoy this article. I did.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/crawford.htm

PDF version: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/1 ... awford.pdf

[BigTex]

Great article linked above--"Shop Class As Soulcraft."

Really interesting ideas.

I like to bump this thread every few months for anyone who might have missed it.

[Sixstrings]

This problem is an old one. It began in the late 19th century, as the industrial age gained steam and people began commuting to offices everyday and pushing paper.

A good eye-opener on the historical nature of this problem is a book written in 1910, _How to Live Your Life on 24 Hours a Day_, by Arnold Bennett.

From wikipedia:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the book, Bennett addressed the large and growing number of white-collar workers that had accumulated since the advent of the Industrial Revolution. In his view, these workers put in eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, at jobs they did not enjoy, and at worst hated.

They worked to make a living, but their daily existence consisted of waking up, getting ready for work, working as little as possible during the work day, going home, unwinding, going to sleep, and repeating the process the next day. In short, he didn't believe they were really living.

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'L')est anyone think I was knocking abstraction, I make my money there too. It's just kind of a bummer when I do real work like mow my yard, work on my car or paint my house, I get this feeling that I am doing something far more useful (i.e. real) than what I do for money, and yet what I do for money pays me way more than what the lawn mowers, mechanics and house painters make.

It's weird. Supply and demand, I suppose.

This is one more reason that it is hard to get "back to the land". The land doesn't pay as well as the office, not in money anyway.