A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.
by Plantagenet » Fri 20 Jul 2007, 02:18:35
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', ' ') NAFTA doesn't allow Canada to sell oil for a different price domestically than to the US. Other oil exporting counties have lower domestic prices. Why do Albertans pay more for gasoline than USians? If Alberta charged the oil companies the same royalities as Norway does Alberta would be getting something like 3 times the revenue it does now.
So renegotiate your oil royalty contracts. The state of Alaska has just done that with the oil companies who produce oil from state lands here. The states and provinces and countries with oil have the whip hand right now. Use it.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Plantagenet
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by WildRose » Fri 20 Jul 2007, 02:42:53
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'n')atural gas, our supplies of which are limited to perhaps 10 years' worth and we have to send 60% of it to the US under NAFTA.
Canada doesn't "have to send" natural gas to the U.S. under NAFTA.
There is no coercion.
Canada freely SELLS natural gas to the U.S. The U.S. is happy to BUY natural gas from Canada.
Yeah, it's okay for now. But 60% of the natural gas we have is going to seem like a much bigger piece of the pie as our reserves deplete further. How easy is it to change the terms of NAFTA?
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by WildRose » Fri 20 Jul 2007, 04:40:23
Canada needs a "proportionality" clause to limit the amount of natural gas (and eventually water) sold to the US. Under NAFTA, we are obligated to adhere to the percentage we agreed on. The SPP would further the interests of US national energy security while leaving Canada with no plan for energy security. We have our Canadian government to thank for that; even Mexico has a proportionality clause under NAFTA.
The link below is a presentation by the Parkland Institute (University of Alberta), which gives recommendations for protecting Canada in the SPP. See right-hand column, scroll down to May 10, 2007 story:
http://www.ualberta.ca/%7Eparkland/index.html
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by wisconsin_cur » Fri 20 Jul 2007, 08:14:11
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m in a pretty good mood, perhaps a little resentful. So it would have been more accurate to call me a resentful idealist. Yes I do resent some things; that we have squandered the resources of this planet, that the UN millennial development goals will not be met, that future generations will live in poverty.
I can accept resentful idealist. Please note in your response that it is "we" who have squandered the resources. I would note that "poverty" is the natural state of humanity and that we have been "wasteful" because we are opportunists. Again, resentment arises when things do not work out the way that we think they should. Do we change our view of the world or do we grow resentful?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f there is a problem with my ideals lets go with yours. How about from the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Or from the Gettysburg Address:
That government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Quote:
The real world doesn't give a ... darn... about your ideals.
Do you give a darn about your ideals? Do you not want to preserve anything as we powerdown? Are no ideals worth fighting for?
The American Founding Fathers understood that people are opportunists and gravitate towards centralizing power. That is why they installed checks and balances and a bill of rights (without which imagine what kind of state we would be in). If you read some of their writings one could be disturbed by the fact that some had an almost Trotsky-like image of the necessity of continual revolution.
Lincoln took the nation down a bloody path for his ideals (which were federalist first and foremost and anti-slavery only when politically expedient).
There are still plenty of Americans willing to kill and die for their ideals. This is how we get a bad wrap in the world press, we generally believe what we say we believe which means we are willing to kill for it, destroy nations (often in the naive hope of rebuilding them) for it, spend ourselves into a deep hole for it.
My problem is with those who ride on the back of the American order imposed since WW2 Yet somehow think they are above the violence and threat of violence that has maintained it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Quote:
I work with a lot of criminals. One thing about criminals and bullies is that they always look for the easiest mark. If the American government is criminal or a bully than don't make your self such an easy mark.
Are you blaming the victim here? Is a mugging victim to blame because they didn't carry a gun? This may actually be a cultural difference. After the school shooting in Montreal there was no talk of arming the teachers as there was in the US. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth just leaves the whole world blind and toothless. I believe in the rule of law, not vigilantism. It is the job of the police to ensure that even the easiest mark feels safe.
I will blame the victim for thinking they live in a world without exploiters, criminals and jerks. Who is it who should be protecting you from the exploitive practices of the USA? Who is the sherrif? Perhaps you should blame your government for selling it to us instead of Americans for taking what they can get and running with it?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Canada never had a Wild West. We have always had law and order. The first building in Calgary was the RCMP station. Given our differing views on how to achieve security I don't think that we should enter into the SPP.
What is the old joke... Canadians have just two things in common as a culture, keep the Americans out and keep the French in? I don't know what the Wild west had to do with anything except that , in a pinch, we do not wait for the centralized government to come and solve our problem. We form a militia and fix the problem. In a post peak age that sounds like a resource not a hinderance.
Don't want to enter the SPP? Fine do something about it. If you have power, use it. If you do not have power why become resentful about it, change your expectations and find a way to live out your ideals in your own home and community. Americans have a long inglorious history of ignoring our central government and recreating communities small and large outside of the mainstream. Perhaps there is something that can be learned from us.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Quote:
Sell your stuff to someone else or keep it to yourself and glory in the vast collection of lumber you have
I agree with you on this. I'm all for localization. However the PTB believe in globalization. We were told that NAFTA would bring prosperity. It has turned out to be a double-edged sword. The SPP may be worse, which brings me back to the original question; how to stop the SPP?
by Plantagenet » Fri 20 Jul 2007, 13:57:58
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', ' ')Yes I do resent some things; that we have squandered the resources of this planet, that the UN millennial development goals will not be met, that future generations will live in poverty.
1. That is just another whine. The rich and successul Canadian society you see around you, with buildings, railroads, highways, universities, theatres, etc. etc. and millions of the richest people on earth was built with the resources of this planet. I don't think that the folks who built Canada were squandering resources. I think they built something quite incredible in just a few hundred years.
2. The UN is a farcial, powerless talking society. Haven't you figured that out yet?
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Plantagenet
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by MalcolmV » Sat 21 Jul 2007, 11:32:01
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', ' ')Given this state of human relationships if we are to have "progress" it requires that order be IMPOSED by someone. There are better orders and there are bad orders.
To believe that order has to be imposed on people from outside is Fascism. Democracy is people governing themselves. People who have order imposed on them are going to resent it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', ' ')My problem is with those who ride on the back of the American order imposed since WW2 Yet somehow think they are above the violence and threat of violence that has maintained it.
Is the US an Empire and if so is the goal of the empire to spread democracy or to profit from the colonies?
PO topic "Is the US an Empire" and wiki article
American Empire .
If the US is an empire, then Canada is a colony and I am a subject of the empire. I am not going to say thank you for that. It takes gall for the empire to expect the conquered to be grateful.
From the wiki article American Empire:
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism." - simultaneously highest ranking and most decorated Marine (including two Medals of Honor) Major General Smedley Butler (also a GOP primary candidate for Senate) 1935.[42]
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." - Dwight Eisenhower, Farewell Address, Jan. 17, 1961.
Wild Rose is right though, the issue is not Canadian vs. American. Since the military/industrial complex has bought the government it’s now the military/industrial/government complex or TPTB. It is the people vs. TPTB.
I was in Quebec City before the Summit of the Americas in 2001 when they were erecting the 3.8 kilometer chain-link fence which I thought was redundant as they had a perfectly good walled city.
During the G8 summit, in Kananaskis, Alberta, in 2002 my sister was driving from Banff to Calgary. Her car was stopped, many cars were being searched in clear violation of her civil rights and the law. Yet no one questioned it, it was assumed that the security of our rulers would supercede the rights of the citizens.
I have been feeling smug, thinking that the erosion of civil rights and the rule of law is a US issue. It’s not, it’s just that Canada, as in many things, is 10 years behind the US.
“The price of democracy is eternal vigilance.” How do TPTB control us? In
Manufacturing Consent: the Political Economy of the Mass Media Chomsky argues media control and propaganda are the tools used. In
What's The Matter With Kansas? : How Conservatives Won the Heart of America Frank says it is basically a bait and switch tactic which cause us to vote for governments that don't have our economic interests at heart.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', ' ')The American Founding Fathers understood that people are opportunists and gravitate towards centralizing power. That is why they installed checks and balances and a bill of rights (without which imagine what kind of state we would be in). If you read some of their writings one could be disturbed by the fact that some had an almost Trotsky-like image of the necessity of continual revolution.
Pronouns are a bitch aren’t they? I wouldn’t be disturbed. Perhaps what we need is continual revolution, or at least continual renewal. I would argue that the Founding Fathers were leery of democracy and that the system of checks and balances was designed to limit the power of the people. What can I do to maintain my power vs. TPTB? I was hoping that if I just ignored them they would go away but it’s not working.
I can sign the petition provided by GW
Petition to Stop the SPP and Deep Integration or
Council of Canadians Petition and send a letter to my MP.
It would be nice to think that with peak oil big government will fade away. But until we’re sitting around the Olduvai Gorge pounding rocks I’m afraid that is wishful thinking. I’m afraid we’re sliding toward a fascist state. As things get worse TPTB will tighten their grip on the economy to maintain their standard of living, as in Argentina where the government is a hindrance to efforts to rebuild the economy.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'P')lease note in your response that it is "we" who have squandered the resources.
As a race we are very happy to exploit one another. If you do not think Canadians have exploitive relationships with other parts of the world then it is you who are deluded.
by Plantagenet » Sat 21 Jul 2007, 13:47:51
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', ' ')If the US is an empire, then Canada is a colony and I am a subject of the empire. I am not going to say thank you for that. It takes gall for the empire to expect the conquered to be grateful.
You were conquered? By the US empire?? And now you are just a poor subject of a far-away evil empire, refusing to say "thank-you". How spunky that is!!! Good for you!!! And how does the local satrap imposed on you by the evil empire behave in your village?..... do the storm troopers posted in your village by the evil oppressive empire make you salute a hat on a pole or subject you to other indignities?
In any case, be brave. It must be awful to believe you were conquered, even if its just in a fantasy.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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by wisconsin_cur » Sat 21 Jul 2007, 14:36:53
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') couple quotes from the 60s’. “What if they gave a war and nobody came” and “Baking bread is a political act”. In their book Living the Good Life Helen and Scott Nearing describe how they try to live without exploitation. They take it so far that they won’t keep bees because taking their honey exploits the labour of the bees.
As I work on the farm I can reduce my energy use, increase my autonomy and withdraw from an exploitative system. I can make my farming a political statement. It’s hard enough to get to work some mornings but I can make it be for something more than just personal survival.
I would like to thank wisconsin_cur, SpringCreekFarm , erb and all the other contributors to this thread for adding a new layer of meaning to my work.
Our differences probably boil down, to use theological terms since I do not know what other terms to use, to the issue of the perfectability of man. I am confident that true believers (you) are capable of great degree of sanctification. The fact is, however, we live in the midst of a lot of unbelievers.
I get a very fundamentalist feel from you MalcolmV, if we disagree than I am judged not a true believer, I am of the devil. I confess that I will never share your purity. I'm over the 1960's. It is not black and white. You and I are human beings. We cannot change the human condition, no matter how you try. I choose not to participate in Sisyphus' curse. No matter how self-righteous I might feel in the process.
I don't know how to feel about the statement that I have given new energy to your self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is an addiction that one only overcomes once they have hit bottom. You strike me as one with a low bottom. Blame me all you want, you were just looking for an excuse. When you are ready I would suggest a good 12 step program.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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by Plantagenet » Sat 21 Jul 2007, 16:17:59
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', '"')Sisyphus was happy"
You've misquoted Camus' famous statement, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" and misunderstood the philosophical meaning of Camus' story as well.
Camus is saying that it is possible for self-actualized people to be happy in spite of the problems thrown at us in this absurd world. This occurs when people realize that the world we see is the real world and our fate in it is of our own making. Camus is saying that even when there there is no hope, like Sisyphus condemned to torture in the worst pit of hell, if we are honest enough to face the facts of the situation, then one's life remains purely what we make of it. Camus never said "Sisyphus was happy" and your misquote shows you don't understand the point. Sisyphus is being tortured as he struggles to push the boulder up the hill. The torture didn't make him happy. But Camus suggested that Sisyphus is totally aware of his fate, and is self-conscously happy to be engaged in the work, although the absurd work will never stop and he will never win.
In contrast, your claims that you were conquered and forced to live in the evil American empire but are being pluckily brave are total fantasies. Open your eyes and look around you. You live in wonderful, rich, democratic Canada...universally considered to be amoung the wealthiest and most beautiful and best places to live on earth. No one has conquered you and the United States isn't in control of you or your government and has never required you to do anything.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Plantagenet
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by wisconsin_cur » Sun 22 Jul 2007, 11:13:17
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Declan', 'C')anadians vs. Americans and vice versa. What are you doing?
You guys are wasting so much good hate. Combine your anger and turn it on the Mexicans.
Matt Savinar , how could you let this board become so permeated with morons and bleeding hear liberal douche bags?
Thank you for demonstrating how we might improve our discussion.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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