[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'W')e also buy your lumber

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')MalcolmV wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
We also buy your lumber


And you're going to pay us the 5 billion dollars you owe us for it right?


I'm not sure what this means.

[wisconsin_cur]

What I am insensitive to is whining and complaining. Do something about it or shut up. In nursing your hurts you just nurse your own sense of moral superiority.

Are we hypocrites regarding free trade? Yes, show me a nation that isn't and I will show you a colony.

Like much of Europe Canadians can also be hypocritical about the Western world order on things like non-proliferation. They are against non-proliferation until it might cost something to enforce the current order. They want to be everyone's friend and have the benefits of an order imposed by one set of cultures upon the world. Imposing order sometimes means you kill people.

If you decide not to participate that is fine... some other set of cultures will impose a new order and they will kill people to maintain that order.

We are all hypocrites. World politics and economics is not about moral purity it is about trade offs. If the softwood means enough to you find a way to hurt us. Stop selling lumber to us. New house prices will go up. It will cost me more for home improvement. Maybe I'll contact my congressman. Maybe well change. If you are just going to go to your room and cry don't be surprised if I ignore you.

If you do not demand respect it will not be given to you. If you act like a bunch of crybabies we will treat you like cry babies.

[mmasters]

All this my country and your country stuff is bullshit. It's exactly what the people running the show want you to focus on, meanwhile they increase their domination.

[wisconsin_cur]

What I am saying is do something. Sell your oil to China if they are so much better trade partners.

When I run into a liar and a cheat I stop doing busisiness with them. Stop buying T-bills sell your oil in Euros. There are all kind of things you could do. I'm sorry you won the argument. Unfortunatly you forgot to think of a way to enforce it.

There are plenty of cry babies down here also who would sit around and cry about how unjust the world is. Others decide to either a)live with it... which is my option or b) do something about it.

Somehow this must not be that bad of a place since so many of Canada's best and brightest keep on moving here.

Canadian start ups moving south

We will keep on cashing your checks as long as you keep on writing them. I fail to see how that is America's fault. I'd blame the fool that keeps on writing them.

Buy the way continue to support your public broadcasting system. I'm in lust with the voice of Barbara Budd.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'A')ll this my country and your country stuff is bullshit. It's exactly what the people running the show want you to focus on, meanwhile they increase their domination.

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'A')ll this my country and your country stuff is bullshit. It's exactly what the people running the show want you to focus on, meanwhile they increase their domination.

[wisconsin_cur]

Let me let a lot of things just float by to try to cut through the static...

I don't have a problem with your ideals. Maybe we agree maybe we don't, it has nothing to do with what I was trying (obviously poorly) to communicate.

When I call people bastards and hypocrites I am talking about the human race. You quote the Bible, fine call it original sin or a state of fallness or whatever. As a race we are very happy to exploit one another. If you do not think Canadians have exploitive relationships with other parts of the world then it is you who are deluded.

Given this state of human relationships if we are to have "progress" it requires that order be IMPOSED by someone. There are better orders and there are bad orders. Chaos is better than a very bad order. Is the current system so bad that you are ready to rebel against it? Fine do so. My problem is with idealistic whiners who complain that their ideal world does not correspond with the real world. If there is a disjunct it is not the problem of the real world... it predates and will out last your ideals... it is the problem of your ideals.

I work with a lot of criminals. One thing about criminals and bullies is that they always look for the easiest mark. If the American government is criminal or a bully than don't make your self such an easy mark. Sell your stuff to someone else or keep it to yourself and glory in the vast collection of lumber you have and re-educate your lumberjacks and truck drivers to work as social workers. If you are not willing to stand up for yourself in the real world than don't be surprised if you are exploited. The ideal world is only in your mind. The real world doesn't give a ... darn... about your ideals.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MalcolmV', 'A') friend of mine living near Calgary asks why should we ship our oil and gas to the US just so they can waste it?

[Plantagenet]

I checked out the link above saying the US owed 5 billion dollars to Canada because of softwood lumber trade issues.

The link said:

"As part of the settlement, the Canadian government handed over $1billion of the duties collected from Canadian companies--$500 million to the US companies, and $450 million to the Bush Administration..... In addition, the Americans secured tough restrictions on Canadian access to their market and got enhanced control over Canadian forest policies."

So the reality of the matter is that Canada is paying the US for its past violations of the trade agreement, not the other way around. I'm sure Canadians would like 5 billion dollars (who wouldn't?), but the reality is that Canada itself evidently did something wrong as they are the ones paying out 1 billion to the US.

[WildRose]

Well, to my mind, there are a lot of deeper questions that need to be answered where the SPP is concerned. Instead of arguing Canadian vs. American, we really should be trying to see what the greater truth behind all of this is because, let's face it, many of us have family and good friends in both countries.

Is this integration part of something larger and more sinister, as mmasters alluded to? It could be another section of a broader plan for one world government, easier to control this continent if we are already under one government.

Is it a plan that will further benefit the large corporations that already control our nations, further screwing the little guy, and both of our governments realize the benefit in this?

Is it more one-sided, where the Canadian government feels it's better to agree to this now than face more pressure later on (re: natural resources)? Or, could it actually be that our governments (rightly or wrongly) think that a plan for sharing a mobile work force, military defense, natural resources, etc. is better than not having such a plan in the long run?

Personally, I have some worries about a few things: some of Canada's natural resources being stretched beyond their limits, water not enough to go around for Canada, nevermind the US (river levels in southern Alberta, for example, already stressed by pollution and falling levels); also, natural gas, our supplies of which are limited to perhaps 10 years' worth and we have to send 60% of it to the US under NAFTA. Also, to me there is a worry that if the US continues to deal with resource depletion by fighting, all our kids could be drafted to fight for the North American Union.

What really stinks is that this is being pushed along with no input AT ALL from any of us, the average Canadian and American. Why is this not discussed with us at any level of our governments? I think we deserve to know.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SpringCreekFarm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ersonally, I have some worries about a few things: some of Canada's natural resources being stretched beyond their limits, water not enough to go around for Canada, nevermind the US (river levels in southern Alberta, for example, already stressed by pollution and falling levels); also, natural gas, our supplies of which are limited to perhaps 10 years' worth and we have to send 60% of it to the US under NAFTA. Also, to me there is a worry that if the US continues to deal with resource depletion by fighting, all our kids could be drafted to fight for the North American Union.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
Even if the union does "go through" it is based upon cheap oil. It will die. We will relocalize. Central governments whether they be in Ottawa, D.C. or Mexico City will become less important. So why worry? or care?

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
Even if the union does "go through" it is based upon cheap oil. It will die. We will relocalize. Central governments whether they be in Ottawa, D.C. or Mexico City will become less important. So why worry? or care?

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'S')o the reality of the matter is that Canada is paying the US for its past violations of the trade agreement

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')alcolmV wrote: A friend of mine living near Calgary asks why should we ship our oil and gas to the US just so they can waste it?

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'W')ell, to my mind, there are a lot of deeper questions that need to be answered where the SPP is concerned. Instead of arguing Canadian vs. American, we really should be trying to see what the greater truth behind all of this is because, let's face it, many of us have family and good friends in both countries.

What really stinks is that this is being pushed along with no input AT ALL from any of us, the average Canadian and American. Why is this not discussed with us at any level of our governments? I think we deserve to know.

[TheDude]

My guess is that the super freeway will fall apart in the face of rising fuel prices anyway, around two years from now. Commerce across the borders will go down due to demand destruction, shipping prices will cause economies to contract greatly, people will lose interest in trinkets made overseas. Wonder how the Chinese will respond to that. This big freeway will be billions of dollars we'll suddenly decide we want, if price shocks don't make that apparent sooner anyway.

I see a great rise in demand for used items as well, another paradigm that is unthinkable for most US residents right now, but when discretionary income is at a minimum people will change their tune out of necessity.

[MalcolmV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'L')et me let a lot of things just float by to try to cut through the static...

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'n')atural gas, our supplies of which are limited to perhaps 10 years' worth and we have to send 60% of it to the US under NAFTA.