[Denny]

I recently spent two weeks in Ireland, pus a few days in northern Germany. I found that, though many things are pricier there, the lifetyle is good.

For instance in Rostock and Dublin, most of the downtown areas are still actively used by shoppers. While you find chain stores there, like Dunne's, you also see a nice variety of other stores too, including "off the wall" ones like used book stores, tattoo parlours and exotic sexy lingerie places that one would never encounter in a mall. (Not that I buy lingerie, but the window shopping is cool.) Likewise, many different restaurants and bars. And, all the wonderful flowers and trees around the Liffy river.

When I compare that to the sterile suburban shopping experience in Canada and the U.S., Ireland seems to come out on top. Yes, the driving in the European cities sucks, but I was able to take a bus downtown in just 25 minutes from where I stayed in the Dublin suburb of Clontarf and the bus came every five minutes or so! Compare that to my nearest suburban mall, where I spend about ten minutes just walking from the parking lot to the stores. And, the stores in all Canadian suburbs seem to be "cookie cutter" from town to town. Oh, and if you buy a large item in Ireland, you don't have to wrestle it into your car, the stores there deliver! (Like the way our North American grandparents used to experience it.)

Also, Dublin is still humming at 11 pm, while most North American downtowns, except the likes of Toronto or New York, start to be deserted after 6:30 pm.

I think James Kunstler is right, we in North America have traded away the best of city experiences for our suburban bland, have let our downtown cities decay and we lose out as we are exposed to much less in the way of choices and sharing of lifestyles than used to the the case.

Its this common "downtown" experience that also provides the traffic density for frequent mass transit.

[gampy]

I hear you.

Although, to be fair, I imagine European cities have their unique problems as well.

I am fortunate that the small city I live in has a vibrant downtown, and
people are encouraged to open businesses there, and live there. We still have the strip malls on the outskirts, and the cookie cutter suburban design, but for now, I live in the city centre, I work in the city centre, and I play in the city centre. It's a pleasure to go shopping downtown. Lots of Mom and Pop type stores, and unique businesses. Every shop is different. We have the starbucks, and Indigo books, and a few other chain brand retail establishments, but so far, the city fathers (and mothers) have been trying to keep the downtown unique, vibrant, and functional.

It's an old city (1700's) so that is probably why. The city proper was developed before the advent of the automobile. Having some history and landmarks helps. It's somewhat quaint. A lot of revenue comes from tourism, so the city planners are not being altruistic, they just don't want the downtown to turn into a wasteland, because the tourists won't come.

I have never been to Europe, so I can't say, but do European cities have ugly suburbs? Ugly industrial districts? I imagine so.

[pea-jay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', 'I') have never been to Europe, so I can't say, but do European cities have ugly suburbs? Ugly industrial districts? I imagine so.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')I have never been to Europe, so I can't say, but do European cities have ugly suburbs? Ugly industrial districts? I imagine so.

[Alcassin]

Warsaw from one point is the ugliest city in Poland on the other hand it is unique, you can't find second city like Warsaw. Besides I lived there fo 5 years and I like it much. You can't find so many monuments in socreal shape within Eastern Europe.

Still you should go to some Industrial cities in Europe, they are far worse But still I like them

[frankthetank]

The downtown here in La Crosse is really active and nice looking. The city here has put a lot of money into sidewalks/lighting/etc. I still think its the bars (La Crosse is where all the drunk college kids fall in the Mississippi River and drown) that keeps the downtown humming. We also have a beautiful park right along the river that seems to really help. Stupid Wal Mart is way out of the city on what use to be a hayfield, along with Home Depot and some other businesses. Getting from downtown to WalMart by bike is doable, but not very user friendly. I would say biking in La Crosse is probably way above average in the US, for getting around easily. I think the city here is 150 years old give or take with most people being of German heritage (Octoberfest here is huge). Population of the city itself is 50000 with close to 80K in the area.

[emersonbiggins]

The real shame is that we (as a civilization) never lost the ability to build great cities, even after both World Wars. We just prioritized it out of existence.

I submit for your review Rotterdam:

1940, after German bombing:



2006.

[skeptic]

Please don't come to Barcelona. Its a horrible place. Just stay away!
;_)

[Plantagenet]

One important difference is that the older parts of many inner cities in America have become dangerous, poor, racially segregated ghettos while the newly built suburbs have prospered.

In constrast, the European inner cities are often wonderful and prosperous, but are sometimes surrounded by poor, racially segregated ghettos newly built to hold immigrant populations.

[I_Like_Plants]

Only the suburbs are becoming the new ghettos, and are becoming racial enclaves even more isolated than the old city ones were.

But yes we 'Murrikans love to do things in a big way. Everyone denies it, but BIG = GOOD in the Empire. Paul Fussell noted even back around 1980 (original printing of his book Class) that lower-class Americans seem to enjoy showing off their big bodies and protruding bellies.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')lower-class Americans seem to enjoy showing off their big bodies and protruding bellies.

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')lower-class Americans seem to enjoy showing off their big bodies and protruding bellies.

[Plantagenet]

When I lived in Europe I was struck by how few fat people there were. I enjoyed the very healthy European lifestyle when I was there. I didn't have a car....I used mass transit and trains to go everywhere. Every morning I would take a lovely walk over the pasarelle foot bridge over the river to the Old City. I walked everywhere.

But everything changes. Even Europe.

Ooops. Too late. Sad to say, the proudly protruding bellies are appearing there too!!

"Obesity is one of the greatest public health challenges of the 21st century. Its prevalence has tripled in many countries in the WHO European Region since the 1980s, and the numbers of those affected continue to rise at an alarming rate, particularly among children."

[I_Like_Plants]

yes it's been in the news for a while that the British are fattening up nicely and the Germans and even the French are following suit. Not the overall doughiness and prevelent obesity that is the mark of being a subject of the Empire, but they are getting there.

To cite the obvious, the US has pioneered the corporate "food" model and increasingly your average Brit or French person is buying corporate "food" rather than locally grown stuff. And as this increases, they're plumping up.

But much of this is social norms and pressure too, and that's my arguement that it's more than McFood behind this. We Americans are known for having nicer teeth than average than your average Brit or European, because that's a higher priority for us. Culturally, it's important to us so we have 26 types of toothpaste and a whole market aisle devoted to toothbrushes, and all that. Well, I submit that being big and fat is a cultural norm for us too, and accounts as much as corporate food for our obesity - maybe even more. I think big and fat and jiggly is a sort of exaggeration of instinctive signals - take your average American "looker" walking down the street - everything jiggles. I was talking with a friend and a horribly obese high school girl came wobbling up the road, and my friend sure gave her the eye. I was amazed, but think about it - on a normal healthy human female, you'll see some wiggle in the butt, and some in the chest area. Areas that hold healthy body fat. Well, on the American model, wow, everything wiggles and jiggles and shimmies! From calves to chins, it's like a Jell-O commercial brought to life. On some kind of instinctive level, it's got to be quite a show.

So, while Americans are increasingly being educated about the causes of obesity, one factor making this education seem not to work is, that Americans may not really want to lose weight.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')We Americans are known for having nicer teeth than average than your average Brit or European, because that's a higher priority for us.

[Plantagenet]

Chris Loufte for The New York Times

ROCHDALE, England, May 2 — "I snapped it out myself," said William Kelly, 43, describing his most recent dental procedure, the autoextraction of one of his upper teeth.

William Kelly, 43, extracted part of his own tooth, leaving a black stump. He plans to pull one more.
Now it is a jagged black stump, and the pain gnawing at Mr. Kelly's mouth has transferred itself to a different tooth, mottled and rickety, on the other side of his mouth. "I'm in the middle of pulling that one out, too," he said.


... the problem is serious. Mr. Kelly's predicament is not just a result of cigarettes and possibly indifferent oral hygiene; he is careful to brush once a day, he said. Instead, it is due in large part to the deficiencies in Britain's state-financed dental service, which, stretched beyond its limit, no longer serves everyone and no longer even pretends to try."

[I_Like_Plants]

Ouch!!!

[Plantagenet]

The NHS say two more years on the waiting list to see the Dentist? Did you tell them how much it hurts, love? No good??

Up the NHS!!!! I'll do it meself.

Now....Stiff upper lip there, lad, while we self-extract that rotten tooth. Be a good chap and hand me the pliers...now this won't take but a jiffy.

Hold 'im down, mates.

OooooooHHHHHHHooooooouuuuUUUUU!!!

[LaLaLand]

I've long held the belief that Americans sacrifice quality for quantity while Europeans sacrifice quantity for quality.

Of course French culture and Parisian culture are not synonymous and Paris is by no means prototypically European; close enough for an example. I lived in Paris for 2 months with a bunch of Architecture students, who for the most part never traveled very far from their homes growing up. The first thing many of the students noticed was how stylish Paris was compared to their neighborhoods that were comprised of tract housing. European cities often have contextual relationships where architecture and road/pedestrian thoroughfares always lead to something while American cites are highly individualistic and laid out on machine style grids.

On one hand, while the Parisians consume a lot of style, their living spaces are small and devoid of privacy. The typical American suburbanite can go home to a private enclosure fairly free from outside interference and still have some kind of attachment to nature but their private world typically looks and functions poorly.

[Plantagenet]

Paris is lovely, isn't it?

Paris may well be the most beautiful city in the world (although I'm partial to Rome....and Venice.....and San Francisco....and Sydney.....and Amsterdam....and Bangkok.....and Kathmandu....and Lhasa....and whatever the next one I visit is).