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Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

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Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby joe1347 » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 10:51:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... ss.opinion


Old oil fears don't match 2007 reality
U.S. vulnerability, economic threat are largely overstated

Philip E. Auerswald

Sunday, July 15, 2007

Congress is debating action to address the nation's dependence on foreign oil. This would seem to be good news. Not necessarily.

While tightening requirements on fuel efficiency is a good idea, many other envisioned policies aimed at "energy independence" fix a problem that no longer exists


But while the nation, as a whole, is not threatened by higher gas prices, it is threatened by oil-alarmism. Exaggerated claims about the adverse impacts of oil price shocks on consumers and the economy have for decades helped justify an unnecessarily assertive, and costly, military posture in the Middle East and elsewhere. They have provided a rationale for billions spent on lease breaks for the oil industry. And now they provide motivation for a new round of ill-considered subsidies, including support for climate-hostile technologies to convert coal to oil, and a dramatic increase in the production of corn-based ethanol of questionable benefit to citizens of the United States, and harmful to citizens elsewhere.

Philip E. Auerswald is assistant professor and director of the Center for Science and Technology Policy at the School of Public Policy, George Mason University



If it's in a Newspaper and written by a College Professor - then it must be true!

The author seems to have forgotten to mention that many of the major oil fields are likely in decline. Maybe I'm being an alarmist, but I would think that supply disruptions which will result in gas lines are likely and may actually become the norm in not that many years as demand continues to increase without a corresponding increase in supply. Wouldn't taking proactive action now to reduce our dependence on imported oil be prudent on the part of our leaders as opposed to just waiting on market forces - namely much higher prices for gas to force changes?
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." Homer Simpson
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 11:27:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', 'M')aybe I'm being an alarmist, but I would think that supply disruptions which will result in gas lines are likely and may actually become the norm in not that many years as demand continues to increase without a corresponding increase in supply.


Well, once spare capacity is gone, this won't even be possible. While spare capacity ain't quite gone, we're already in a static production environment...so demand better go elsewhere if it wants gasoline for its cars.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', '
') Wouldn't taking proactive action now to reduce our dependence on imported oil be prudent on the part of our leaders as opposed to just waiting on market forces - namely much higher prices for gas to force changes?


According to our Presidents since Nixon, we've been taking steps and funding silly measures to reduce our dependance. Jimmy The NitWit had a plan for using being independant of crude oil by...oh...2000? Gee....that worked well, eh? Ronny, Bush, and Slick Willy haven't done any better. Its all a sham.

Macro reduction on crude relies on micro reduction on crude useage...I sold a truck awhile back and collected something which gets better mileage.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby AirlinePilot » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 12:05:15

Just a peak at what denial looks like, thats it right there.

PD,

There will be no political will to go where we need to go with regards to conservation and government mandated programs like CAFE standards etc without a crisis of major proportions. It's always been like that. Unfortunately reacting to this will be too little too late. Jimmy Carter had the right idea I believe but politically and economically those of the time who had the power would not let it happen.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 12:44:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', '
')
If it's in a Newspaper and written by a College Professor - then it must be true!

demand continues to increase without a corresponding increase in supply. Wouldn't taking proactive action now to reduce our dependence on imported oil be prudent on the part of our leaders as opposed to just waiting on market forces - namely much higher prices for gas to force changes?


I think the point of the article is that the action being taken by govt, post WW2, has always involved hammering small foreign countries into compliance. The research and development for alternatives have been no more than panacea programs and the ethanol boondoggle is something that can easily come under the control of big Oil.

People on this forum need to be reading more articles like these, in my opinion.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby frankthetank » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 12:49:05

Another article to throw in my vault and pull back out in 10 years.

If i'm able to email, i'll forward this back to Phil!
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby Eli » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 13:29:46

The guy is a friggin idiot.

He talks about how our oil in the US comes from friendly nations like Mexico and Canada. I guess he has never heard of Cantarell.

And he must not take have taken a serious look at the latest from the IEA.

He is right about one thing the old oil fears don't match 2007 realities that is for sure. If people really had any idea how bad things were, they would be scarred out of their ever lovin minds. The 70's shocks were nothin compared to what we are going to be facing.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 13:46:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'T')he guy is a friggin idiot.

He talks about how our oil in the US comes from friendly nations like Mexico and Canada. I guess he has never heard of Cantarell.

And he must not take have taken a serious look at the latest from the IEA.

He is right about one thing the old oil fears don't match 2007 realities that is for sure. If people really had any idea how bad things were, they would be scarred out of their ever lovin minds. The 70's shocks were nothin compared to what we are going to be facing.


While occasionally hitting upon some facts, the article has got the world backwards - looking at all events in terms of the financial fiat dollar, instead of the cold reality of the physical oil.

I see no mention of rapidly increasing dependence on energy imports - for example, gasoline imports have gone up significantly since mid-2005.

Stories like this confuse the public and hide the fact we have past peak light sweet crude in 2005, and possibly most other above averge quality crude grades by now.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby jedinvest » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 13:50:44

Bio of Philip E. Auerswald:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')hilip Auerswald is Director of the Center for Science and Technology Policy and an Assistant Professor at the School of Public Policy. Professor Auerswald's work focuses on linked processes of technological and organizational change in the contexts of policy, economics, and strategy. He is the co-editor of Innovations: Technology | Governance | Globalization, a quarterly journal from MIT Press about people using technology to address global challenges. He is co-author with Lewis M. Branscomb of Taking Technical Risk: How Innovators, Executives, and Investors Manage High-Tech Risks. He has been a consultant to the National Academies of Science, the Commonwealth of Massacusetts, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Washington and a B.A. (political science) from Yale University.


Not a science or engineering degree in his bio, yet he is a director of a Center for Science Policy. I remember the days when we choose our science policy directors from those who actually made a contribution to science and technology.javascript:emoticon(':wink:')
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 14:02:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'W')hile occasionally hitting upon some facts, the article has got the world backwards - looking at all events in terms of the financial fiat dollar, instead of the cold reality of the physical oil.

I see no mention of rapidly increasing dependence on energy imports - for example, gasoline imports have gone up significantly since mid-2005.

Stories like this confuse the public and hide the fact we have past peak light sweet crude in 2005, and possibly most other above averge quality crude grades by now.


The problems with the dollar are of a more paramount concern than the peak of light sweet crude. Though the financial world has areas that are utterly opaque, the entire premise of peak oil is based on reserve estimations that are concocted in a realm that lacks transparency. Therefore, I can trust the idea that a global financial meltdown is immanent, based on clarity of information.

Though peak seems to be a certainty, you have no absolute proof that we have passed the peak of light sweet crude. The public, who you claim is easy to confuse, is generally highly skeptical of their govt and oil companies, which appears to be a realisitic point of view, that many on this forum, eschew.

Demand destruction, brought on by financial meltdowns, both domestically and in China and India will take care of increasing demand, and a depletion curve that is more gradual, as a consequence, is a scenario we should be anticipating.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby sjn » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 14:33:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Demand destruction, brought on by financial meltdowns, both domestically and in China and India will take care of increasing demand, and a depletion curve that is more gradual, as a consequence, is a scenario we should be anticipating.

I'm sorry threadbear, but financial/economic meltdown cannot result in a more gradual slope than geologic depletion. It can only make the rate of decline more rapid. Even if you don't agree that we are at geological peak, the infrastructure situation is such that massive investment is required simply to stand still with production, a global depression will cut of any chance of increased capital expenditure.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 14:37:35

Crude oil and condensate production peaked out in 2005 per the EIA and IEA. If someone has some figures that show these conclusions to be false, please produce them.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 14:51:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joe1347', ' ')Wouldn't taking proactive action now to reduce our dependence on imported oil be prudent on the part of our leaders as opposed to just waiting on market forces - namely much higher prices for gas to force changes?


Reduce our dependence?

We import 60% of our crude oil and petroleum products (about 14 mbpd and 13 mbpd net). In another two decades that number is forecast to climb to 68 percent.

I doubt we can even slow the rate of growth of imports.

Let's look at some history. Even when the US was the #1 producer of oil in the world, we could not keep up with domestic demand and had to start importing oil.

Image

There is nothing that can close this gap except a massive reduction in our standard of living and/or population levels.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sun 15 Jul 2007, 15:16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 14:56:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', ' ')Jimmy The NitWit had a plan for using being independant of crude oil by...oh...2000? Gee....that worked well,


Might have, if not for Reagan and "It's Morning in America."

Jimmy, the NitWit?

Boy...are you poorly informed.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby shortonoil » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 15:07:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy do you respond seriously to this sniveling little troll, AirlinePilot? Do you see some affinity perhaps?


pstarr, AirlinePilot has been a dedicated member of this forum for a long time. He has been a stauch supporter for bringing PO awareness out into the light of day. Even though I very much appreciate and respect your insight and analysis on the PO dilemma, I think your comment “Do you see some affinity perhaps?” is uncalled for.

Yes, I agree, PD is a troll.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]sjn said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]threadbear wrote:

Demand destruction, brought on by financial meltdowns, both domestically and in China and India will take care of increasing demand, and a depletion curve that is more gradual, as a consequence, is a scenario we should be anticipating.


I'm sorry threadbear, but financial/economic meltdown cannot result in a more gradual slope than geologic depletion. It can only make the rate of decline more rapid. Even if you don't agree that we are at geological peak, the infrastructure situation is such that massive investment is required simply to stand still with production, a global depression will cut of any chance of increased capital expenditure.


The entire PO proposition has absolutely nothing to do with money! It is a physical constraint that is being imposed upon humanity by the Laws of Thermodynamics. Money is just an artificial artifact of this underlying phenomena, and will disappear with the energy upon which it is based.

Economist Phil is just another challenged Ph.D. with the unique capability of placing his head in the sand and up his ass at the same time.
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Re: Old Oil fears don't match 2007 reality

Unread postby sjn » Sun 15 Jul 2007, 16:11:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '
')The entire PO proposition has absolutely nothing to do with money! It is a physical constraint that is being imposed upon humanity by the Laws of Thermodynamics. Money is just an artificial artifact of this underlying phenomena, and will disappear with the energy upon which it is based.

I entirely agree. The perceptual paradigm of the majority of people in the world does not reflect the underlying reality. PO and declining ERoEI will <i>appear</i> to manifest itself financially until that perception can no longer be maintained.
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