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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

What Do You Believe Is True Even Though You Cannot Prove It

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 10 Jan 2005, 02:24:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', ':')mrgreen:

So random, yet so sweet. Or should it be the other way around?
No, it shouldn't be the other way around which is nasty. Leave it the way I said it.
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Unread postby KiddieKorral » Mon 10 Jan 2005, 06:57:48

What I meant by
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')r should it be the other way around?

is, were you being random yet sweet, or sweet yet random?
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Unread postby Guest » Wed 12 Jan 2005, 12:53:18

i believe cell-phones will dance before we feed the starving.
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Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 12 Jan 2005, 13:11:14

I believe the null space Einstein talked about (which makes up 99% of all matter) is where spirit lies. I also think that since light can pass through objects, it is this space that makes it possible. I also think this space is continuous with no end, running through everything and everyone in the universe. this is what connects us. I also believe you can access knowledge and intent there.
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Unread postby Apathy » Fri 14 Jan 2005, 15:55:16

Well, now that I think about, I believe just about everything. But you know what? I really don't care enough to prove any of it. So I guess I can write just about everything I know in here.

But ok, I'll make a special effort. I believe that Sloth will someday get off our darn couch, but I can't prove it!

Hmmm,... seemed funny when I thought of it. But now, it just feels dumb. Oh well, back to watching the weather channel for me.
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Unread postby bobcousins » Sun 16 Jan 2005, 21:11:54

I agree that Earth probably has the oldest or only surviving life in the galaxy, or at least one of a very few examples, but your galactic astronomy is a little off. Life could only form in a younger solar system because it needs the heavier elements which are only formed by stars at the end of their life. Also there are good reasons why life is unlikely to arise at the centre or edges of the galaxy; the sweet spot is about 1/3 to 1/5 the way from the centre, which about where we are.

Although its sometimes claimed that many planets could support life, when you look at it there are lots of reasons why Earth is "just right". For example a lot of stars are in binary systems, which probably aren't conducive to life; having a large moon keeps our orbit stable; large outer planets sweep up comets; Earth has a molten iron core which creates a protective magnetic field, the list goes on. And intelligent life is not inevitable.

I draw my conclusion from Fermis paradox; if there is intelligent life out there, it would only take a few million years to travel around the galaxy- so why haven't we seen them yet? I think either life is far more rare than suggested by the Drake formula; or that space travel is just too difficult. I now realise there is a third possibility : advanced civilisations run out of energy before they are able to colonise other planets.

I see two areas where our technology has peaked : supersonic passenger planes, and manned space flight. The ISS is like camping in the garden when you are a child, except that it costs about $200 million a year to send up enough supplies for one astronaut. I would love to see a manned mission to Mars, but I can't see it happening.

Will our civilization survive for another thousand years, let alone millions?
It's all downhill from here
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 02:22:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', 'W')hat I meant by
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')r should it be the other way around?

is, were you being random yet sweet, or sweet yet random?
Sure, kiddie, that's how I took it (even though these postings were at one of those times at which you suggest I unplug the computer 8) ) random yet sweet is like, well, random acts of kindness. sweet yet random is like, well there was a song in my day that went:

Rap, Rap, Rap!
They call him the Rapper
Rap, Rap, Rap
You know what he's after!

So y'see, I didn't want you to get any bad impressions. :-D
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Unread postby rowante » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 23:28:02

Most topical replies for PO.com... my noms are:

Jean Paul Schmetz

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen considering this question one has to remember the basis of the scientific method: formulating hypotheses that can be disproved. Those hypotheses that are not disproved are thought to be true until disproved. Since it is more glamorous for a scientist to formulate hypotheses that it is to spend years disproving existing ones from other scientists and that it is unlikely that someone will spend enough time and energy trying to disprove his/her own statements, our body of scientific knowledge is surely full of statements we believe to be true but will eventually be proved to be false.

So I turn the question around: What scientific ideas that have not been disproved, do you believe are false.

In my field (theoretical economics), I believe that most ideas taught in economics 101 will be proved false eventually. Most of them would already have been officially defined as false in any other more hard-science, but, because of lack of better hypotheses they are still widely accepted and used in economics and general commentary. Eventually, someone will come up with another type of hypotheses explaining (and predicting) the economic reality in a way that will render most existing economics beliefs false.


Nassim Nicholas Taleb

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are good at fitting explanations to the past, all the while living in the illusion of understanding the dynamics of history.

My claim is about the severe overestimation of knowledge in what I call the " ex post" historical disciplines, meaning almost all of social science (economics, sociology, political science) and the humanities, everything that depends on the non-experimental analysis of past data. I am convinced that these disciplines do not provide much understanding of the world or even their own subject matter; they mostly fit a nice sounding narrative that caters to our desire (even need) to have a story. The implications are quite against conventional wisdom. You do not gain much by reading the newspapers, history books, analyses and economic reports; all you get is misplaced confidence about what you know. The difference between a cab driver and a history professor is only cosmetic as the latter can express himself in a better way.

There is convincing but only partial empirical evidence of this effect. The evidence can only be seen in the disciplines that offer both quantitative data and quantitative predictions by the experts, such as economics. Economics and finance are an empiricist's dream as we have a goldmine of data for such testing. In addition there are plenty of "experts", many of whom make more than a million a year, who provide forecasts and publish them for the benefits of their clients. Just check their forecasts against what happens after. Their projections fare hardly better than random, meaning that their "stories" are convincing, beautiful to listen to, but do not seem to help you more than listening to, say, a Chicago cab driver. This extends to inflation, growth, interest rates, balance of payment, etc. (While someone may argue that their forecasts might impact these variables, the mechanism of "self-canceling prophecy" can be taken into account). Now consider that we depend on these people for governmental economic policy!

This implies that whether or not you read the newspapers will not make the slightest difference to your understanding of what can happen in the economy or the markets. Impressive tests on the effect of the news on prices were done by the financial empiricist Victor Niederhoffer in the 60s and repeated throughout with the same results.

If you look closely at the data to check the reasons of this inability to see things coming, you will find that these people tend to guess the regular events (though quite poorly); but they miss on the large deviations, these " unusual" events that carry large impacts. These outliers have a disproportionately large contribution to the total effect.

Now I am convinced, yet cannot prove it quantitatively, that such overestimation can be generalized to anything where people give you a narrative-style story from past information, without experimentation. The difference is that the economists got caught because we have data (and techniques to check the quality of their knowledge) and historians, news analysts, biographers, and "pundits" can hide a little longer. Basically historians might get a small trend here and there, but they did miss on the big events of the past centuries and, I am convinced, will not see much coming in the future. It was said: "the wise see things coming". To me the wise persons are the ones who know that they can't see things coming.
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. - Aldous Huxley

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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 00:25:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rowante', '
')
Nassim Nicholas Taleb
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are good at fitting explanations to the past, all the while living in the illusion of understanding the dynamics of history.

My claim is about the severe overestimation of knowledge. . . I am convinced that these disciplines do not provide much understanding of the world . . . they mostly fit a nice sounding narrative. . . all you get is misplaced confidence about what you know.

Now I am convinced, yet cannot prove it quantitatively, that such overestimation can be generalized to anything where people give you a narrative-style story from past information, without experimentation.

This fellow seems to be yearning for quantifiable, experimental, positivistic knowledge in areas where such things are not to be found no matter how hard one tries to find them. Wasn't Marx the one who set out to find the scientific understanding of history? It led only to illusions. The best we can do to understand history is to hope for creative, constructive minds to produce narratives worth reading. We don't have to rely on one such mind. If you want to know, say, about some indivual of historical interest you can read many works from different perspectives and come to your own conclusions. The field of the humanities requires involved people writing from a human perspective. The desire to bring a detatched, positivistic spirit to these endeavors will only render the humanities inhuman. A critical dialogue on questions of intellectual merit would certainly be great for this forum, rowante. What are your ideas about this rowante? I can always go back to horsing around, though. That's fun too.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 19:52:24

Why are these your noms rowante and what do have to say, if anything, about them?
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Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 18 Jan 2005, 21:26:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I') think either life is far more rare than suggested by the Drake formula; or that space travel is just too difficult.


The problem with the Drake equation is that assumes that once intelligent life is established, it will continue indefinitely. There is a counter hypothesis that states that before any life form develops the level of technology to allow interstellar travel, they predictably develop things like nuclear bombs and exterminate themselves. I think the point is well taken that intelligence is not a particularly well adapted trait. Look at us. We're doing our best to destroy all life on the planet. If mother nature had left us with chimpanzee sized brains, life on earth would be a lot better off.
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Unread postby rowante » Wed 19 Jan 2005, 02:32:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'W')hy are these your noms rowante and what do have to say, if anything, about them?


Simply nominating them for relevance to PO.com...

Just their observation of the fact that economics, the chief antagonist of peak oil theory, is fundamentally flawed. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..Their projections fare hardly better than random, meaning that their "stories" are convincing, beautiful to listen to, but do not seem to help you more than listening to, say, a Chicago cab driver. This extends to inflation, growth, interest rates, balance of payment, etc. (While someone may argue that their forecasts might impact these variables, the mechanism of "self-canceling prophecy" can be taken into account). Now consider that we depend on these people for governmental economic policy!


Have a look at: http://edge.org/3rd_culture/taleb04/taleb_index.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') black swan is an outlier, an event that lies beyond the realm of normal expectations. Most people expect all swans to be white because that's what their experience tells them; a black swan is by definition a surprise. Nevertheless, people tend to concoct explanations for them after the fact, which makes them appear more predictable, and less random, than they are. Our minds are designed to retain, for efficient storage, past information that fits into a compressed narrative. This distortion, called the hindsight bias, prevents us from adequately learning from the past.

Black swans can have extreme effects: just a few explain almost everything, from the success of some ideas and religions to events in our personal lives. Moreover, their influence seems to have grown in the 20th century, while ordinary events — the ones we study and discuss and learn about in history or from the news — are becoming increasingly inconsequential.

Consider: How would an understanding of the world on June 27, 1914, have helped anyone guess what was to happen next? The rise of Hitler, the demise of the Soviet bloc, the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, the Internet bubble: not only were these events unpredictable, but anyone who correctly forecast any of them would have been deemed a lunatic (indeed, some were). This accusation of lunacy would have also applied to a correct prediction of the events of 9/11 — a black swan of the vicious variety.


Peak oil will be a "vicious black swan", and currently the predictors are deemed lunatics by the status quo.
Last edited by rowante on Wed 19 Jan 2005, 22:36:52, edited 1 time in total.
Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. - Aldous Huxley

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Interesting.

Unread postby everything-is-fine » Wed 19 Jan 2005, 03:17:19

Funny, -I'm so sick of debating on this particular issue that I feel my head is about to explode, -but as long as we are all just chiming in with our beliefs, -here goes.

I believe that there is absolutely nothing in the universe that is in any way remotely describable as God. Or a god.

No defense of this statement will be offered, because I'm actually not interested in convincing anyone, -but you can be sure I am going to continue believing it.
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Unread postby skiwi » Wed 19 Jan 2005, 06:46:35

I have nearly finished watching Ian Lungold - secrets of the mayan calendar unveiled from sept 2003 .... and it's mind blowing 8O

I believe every word he's said especially in view of current events

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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 19 Jan 2005, 20:11:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rowante', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow I am convinced, yet cannot prove it quantitatively, that such overestimation can be generalized to anything where people give you a narrative-style story from past information, without experimentation.
OK, this helps. You see what happens if you post a long clipping with no commentary on why you have posted it. I agree with you, as would many of us here, that econimcs isn't a reliable guide to understand the implications of peak oil. They build abstact mathematical principles base on past data. And this does not leave them well prepared to deal with any major anomalies (black swans.) However, your second quote was making arguments that I flat out deny the validity of: demeaning 'narrative' in history is like demeaning sound in music. To a large extent, history 'is' narrative. "What happened? Tell us the story" is basically what it comes down to. To ask for experimentally verifiable hypotheses in the study of history is an oxymoron for the same reason that no experimental methods can be brought to the study of UFO's: these are one-time things - not repeatable. And repeatability is the sine qua non of emperical science. Sure historical knowledge is overestimated from an absolute standpoint, but if you want to know anything at all about the past then its narratives or nothing.
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