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US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby smiley » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 14:01:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '8')0 has supplied pretty strong resistance on the dollar index.


We haven't seen 80 before. It always bounced at the resistance 81-82. We're now beyond that mark, and if it holds then it should be fairly easy for the dollar to dip below 80.

So give it another week to confirm this breakout. If it does then we should see EUR/USD @1.40 on the boards pretty soon.

But it is only logical. The dollar was in decline. That was temporarily halted by unilateral rate increases. However the fundamentals were not changed. Now that the US has emptied its magazine and the rest of the party are joining in, the dollar should resume its descent.

And about loans. If you have negotiated a fixed interest rate you're fine. If you have a floating interest rate you're in trouble. Interest rates on loans are ALWAYS higher than inflation.

Look at Zimbabwe. The inflation rate is much quoted. However little people are aware that the official inter bank loan rate is FIVE-HUNDRED PERCENT. For a mortal like you and I that means that you pay 1000% or more on a loan.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 14:11:02

Roccland, the Yen is staying within a fairly reasonable range.

Call me when the Yen moves 5%+ in one day.

These small movements over the course of a couple years produce exactly the kinds of changes that need to happen in trade and interest rates.

Basically, the world economy is responding just like the models predict.

Dollar drops, interest rates rise, US citizens cut back on spending and increase savings, foreigners spend more and save less, etc.

US Bond Yields (feel free to play around with the chart)

The yield on 5 year bonds has doubled in the past 4 years. The yield on the 10 year has increased by 50%.

As this trend continues, borrowing will become more expensive (thus there will be less of it) and consumption in the United States will decline, replaced by savings.

Deficits have a way of correcting themselves.

I'm not saying we will escape unscathed but we certainly won't collapse like Zimbabwe.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 14:16:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '8')0 has supplied pretty strong resistance on the dollar index. If (and this is a BIG if) we see a breach, say, this week or next, then I've seen it predicted by a number of non tin foilers that BB will intervene immediately with as much as a 50bp hike, even if that guarantees an acknowledged recession shortly down the road. It probably won't breach the 80 barrier, but I'm gonna have fun watching it teeter on the brink.


Scary dollar chart:

FX dollar index chart


From July, 2004 to July, 2007, the dollar fell in value by 10%.

A few more of those and the trade picture will fix itself, thus strengthening the dollar.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Roccland » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 15:05:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')A few more of those and the trade picture will fix itself, thus strengthening the dollar.


I only have one five letter word for you TC...

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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby firestarter » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 15:09:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
From July, 2004 to July, 2007, the dollar fell in value by 10%.

A few more of those and the trade picture will fix itself, thus strengthening the dollar.



Is hamburger flipping a tradeable item?

Seriously, though, has the 10% drop in the value of the dollar improved the net balance of trade in favor of the US? I don't think so. You've gotta have something to trade in the first place outside of raw materials. We might have a lot of them (ag products for instance) but that's no hallmark of a healthy economy. In fact, it's the hallmark of a banana republic minus the bananas.

If the 80 mark is breached ( btw, we have been in the 80's territory before during 2004) we have the pieces in place for a "run on the bank" as there is no downside resistance any more. The psychology of staying above 80 is HUGE! We might have the opportunity to test this theory as early as Sunday night. Stay tuned.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Roccland » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 15:43:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', ' ')Is hamburger flipping a tradeable item?


Not sure about that, but it has been defined in the last three months as "manufacturing".
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby smiley » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 15:47:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')tw, we have been in the 80's territory before during 2004


Your right. Well not in 2004, but in 2005 it was briefly 80.35.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s this trend continues, borrowing will become more expensive (thus there will be less of it) and consumption in the United States will decline, replaced by savings.


For an ordinary economy yes that would be the case. But you have to acknowledge the fact that the dollar is a global currency. In the past decades the control over the dollar has shifted away from the UIS government.

First to other governments, then to private institutions. Virtually every bank, insurer, hedge fund or multinational has a large position in dollars.

In the past inflation has always been caused by governments printing money. Now you have a situation where foreign institutions have mountains of dollars laying around. Imagine that these come avelanging back to the US.

I think that situation is unparraleled in economic history. There is no telling what is going to happen next. Maybe it will just correct itself, maybe it will blow up.

It is not simply a matter whether the trade balance is in deficit or the US government is overspending. They have been doing that for decades and it didn't matter.

Key is will the confidence in the USD as a reserve currency remain.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 16:24:45

I think the magic "80" number for the dollar index is like the magic $40 a barrel figure for oil, or the magic $50 a barrel figure...or the magic $60...or $70...or $80.

There is no single point that leads to a collapse of a currency.

So long as the United States can pay for the interest on its international debt obligations, we won't see a massive run on the dollar.

The trade deficit is artificially large against countries like China and Japan because of an artificially strong dollar.

We need to see the Yen and Yuan appreciate before American exporters can compete in the Asian marketplace.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby firestarter » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 17:04:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') think the magic "80" number for the dollar index is like the magic $40 a barrel figure for oil, or the magic $50 a barrel figure...or the magic $60...or $70...or $80.



It's not that 80 is magic in and of itself. Rather, it's the fact that this is the number that has NEVER been breached. In other words it represents the all-time low point for the dollar. The psychology subsequent to a drop below this threshold has not been tested, and perhaps you are correct that it really won't matter much. At any rate, I see what you're getting at and you very well could be right. We might have an opportunity very soon to test this our assumptions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here is no single point that leads to a collapse of a currency.


It depends on how you define collapse.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he trade deficit is artificially large against countries like China and Japan because of an artificially strong dollar.

We need to see the Yen and Yuan appreciate before American exporters can compete in the Asian marketplace.



Compete how? A weaker dollar means more exports? Exports of what? More debt instruments?
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby frankthetank » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 18:17:42

Thats what i was thinking. Only things we produce being food (corn, soybeans,etc) and airplanes (which have been selling well). Only thing i see holding the dollar up is its link to oil.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Tyler_JC » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 19:06:30

Image

Image

The first pie chart breaks down the components of US exports.

The second pie chart breaks down the components of US imports.

As you can see, food and beverages account for a mere 5% of exports.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby firestarter » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 20:27:24

Tyler_JC,
Not to be rude, but do you understand what globalisation means relative to America's manufacturing of tradeable goods....and services? Have you missed the emasculation of America's manufacturing base subsequent to the mid 90's trade agreements? Are you like Tom Friedman, and believe the world is flat? Please elaborate on how a falling dollar magically makes America a manufacturing giant again, since it hasn't for the past fifteen years. Do you see anything negative relative to the American economy? I'm trying to plumb where you are coming from. You confuse me as to your economic worldview.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby firestarter » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 20:52:01

BTW, exports account for about 11-1/2 % of real GDP, while consumer spending accounts for 70%. Pray tell how the falling dollar changes this dynamic in a positive way for America's hollowed out, consumer bubble economy?
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby CrudeAwakening » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 21:15:22

I really don't see how the US trade deficit can approach any semblance of self-correction merely though dollar devaluation. The problem is a structural one, as Firestarter points out, and I don't see this structural imbalance being addressed by a falling dollar.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby I_Like_Plants » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 22:05:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'T')yler_JC,
Not to be rude, but do you understand what globalisation means relative to America's manufacturing of tradeable goods....and services? Have you missed the emasculation of America's manufacturing base subsequent to the mid 90's trade agreements? Are you like Tom Friedman, and believe the world is flat? Please elaborate on how a falling dollar magically makes America a manufacturing giant again, since it hasn't for the past fifteen years. Do you see anything negative relative to the American economy? I'm trying to plumb where you are coming from. You confuse me as to your economic worldview.


I understand his view, it's that if the US Dollar is worth little enough, eventually we'll all be happy to make Nike shoes for the rest of the world, and our $20/hour will actually be worth about 20 cents an hour.....

We inside the Empire will see foreign goods costing more and more in dollars, hell a good pair of Nike or New Balance shoes is over $100 now. But even the cheapies you find in PayLess Shoe Stores will be $100 and the real Nikes etc will be more like $300. At this point, theoretically you'll see entrepreneurs inside the US starting up making shoes, maybe starting out in garages at first and growing larger. Imagine the same thing with fabrics, toasters, etc. I am listening to my little "Grundig" FR200 which I love, right now - it was about $40 but if it's $400, I'm not going to buy one, I'm going to buy an American made rough equivalent even if it's clunkier, or even build something from an American kit (we're in a new golden age for US-produced and designed radio kits right now).

When shipping things all around the world for dirt cheap becomes no longer dirt cheap, we WILL be making our own shoes again...
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Roccland » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 22:20:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'T')yler_JC,
Not to be rude, but do you understand what globalisation means relative to America's manufacturing of tradeable goods....and services? Have you missed the emasculation of America's manufacturing base subsequent to the mid 90's trade agreements? Are you like Tom Friedman, and believe the world is flat? Please elaborate on how a falling dollar magically makes America a manufacturing giant again, since it hasn't for the past fifteen years. Do you see anything negative relative to the American economy? I'm trying to plumb where you are coming from. You confuse me as to your economic worldview.


I understand his view, it's that if the US Dollar is worth little enough, eventually we'll all be happy to make Nike shoes for the rest of the world, and our $20/hour will actually be worth about 20 cents an hour.....

We inside the Empire will see foreign goods costing more and more in dollars, hell a good pair of Nike or New Balance shoes is over $100 now. But even the cheapies you find in PayLess Shoe Stores will be $100 and the real Nikes etc will be more like $300. At this point, theoretically you'll see entrepreneurs inside the US starting up making shoes, maybe starting out in garages at first and growing larger. Imagine the same thing with fabrics, toasters, etc. I am listening to my little "Grundig" FR200 which I love, right now - it was about $40 but if it's $400, I'm not going to buy one, I'm going to buy an American made rough equivalent even if it's clunkier, or even build something from an American kit (we're in a new golden age for US-produced and designed radio kits right now).

When shipping things all around the world for dirt cheap becomes no longer dirt cheap, we WILL be making our own shoes again...


With the cost of energy poised to shoot to the moon - I am not convinced these US shoe making factories are going to be economically viable.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby chuck6877 » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 22:28:11

I think this is an interesting historical chart of the U.S. Dollar. The U.S. dollar has been in a descending parallel channel since 2002. The big decisive point is less than a couple months away.

It will either break out of the channel to the upside or we will see new all-time lows and the world probably all running for the exits all at once.

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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby firestarter » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 22:33:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'T')yler_JC,
Not to be rude, but do you understand what globalisation means relative to America's manufacturing of tradeable goods....and services? Have you missed the emasculation of America's manufacturing base subsequent to the mid 90's trade agreements? Are you like Tom Friedman, and believe the world is flat? Please elaborate on how a falling dollar magically makes America a manufacturing giant again, since it hasn't for the past fifteen years. Do you see anything negative relative to the American economy? I'm trying to plumb where you are coming from. You confuse me as to your economic worldview.


I understand his view, it's that if the US Dollar is worth little enough, eventually we'll all be happy to make Nike shoes for the rest of the world, and our $20/hour will actually be worth about 20 cents an hour.....

We inside the Empire will see foreign goods costing more and more in dollars, hell a good pair of Nike or New Balance shoes is over $100 now. But even the cheapies you find in PayLess Shoe Stores will be $100 and the real Nikes etc will be more like $300. At this point, theoretically you'll see entrepreneurs inside the US starting up making shoes, maybe starting out in garages at first and growing larger. Imagine the same thing with fabrics, toasters, etc. I am listening to my little "Grundig" FR200 which I love, right now - it was about $40 but if it's $400, I'm not going to buy one, I'm going to buy an American made rough equivalent even if it's clunkier, or even build something from an American kit (we're in a new golden age for US-produced and designed radio kits right now).

When shipping things all around the world for dirt cheap becomes no longer dirt cheap, we WILL be making our own shoes again...



Somehow I don't think $ devaluation is going to play out this way. At any rate there's going to be a shitload of pain given its descent, for a protracted period of time, before, if ever again, we see a semblance of the way it used to be in our heyday. On the other hand if consumerism dies in America--forever--because of $ devaluation then count me as a convert in wishing for its ultimate demise. Fuck the hamster wheel.
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Re: US Dollar Plunging -below 81!!!

Postby Kristen » Sat 14 Jul 2007, 22:36:18

At the moment there are only around five currencies stronger than the U.S. dollar. When it gets to ten We might be screwed. We live in interesting times, that's for sure.
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