[wisconsin_cur]

Do I practice what I preach about "getting over it"? In the last 50 years my family has gone from being landowning farmers to wage slaves, I have a job and 10 acres and am learning about small scale farming... i am neither flaming against wal-mart nor am I blowing up John Deere dealerships. I am over it and I am coping.

I have seen my culture cheapened to passive entertainment. 75 years ago my family learned how to play instruments and sing. Today my cousins sit in front of Televisions and use meth. I am getting over it. I am learning to play the mandolin and teaching my sons to sing.

Years ago you could have a real debate with real people down at the local store. Today talking heads shouting well rehearsed lines and names at one another passes for debate... again those who watch it do so passively in front of a Tv. I'm getting over it. I have a few friends with whom I can have a meaningful debate and I read a few of these boards though the quality varies.

I am not raging against the machine. I am living as good a life as I can given the time and place. I see the wounds of modern culture everyday. I see its effects on my family whom I love and I get over it.

What percentage of Iranians are still suffering from the effects of an ill-advised coup in the 1950's? What percentage are suffering because of the powers that be in Tehran? As of July 5, 2007 we have done a lot less harm to the Iranian people than the Iranian people have done to themselves.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')What percentage of Iranians are still suffering from the effects of an ill-advised coup in the 1950's?

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')What percentage of Iranians are still suffering from the effects of an ill-advised coup in the 1950's?

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')eep on blaming someone else for all your problems. Lets see how far it gets you.

[wisconsin_cur]

You say that we declared "war" in 1953 fine. That provocative statement suggests that we are doing harm to Iran. Last time I checked "war" is a bad thing where we try to kill people and break their stuff. Therefore, we must be inflicting something on Iran.

We will omit that inconveinent part of your hypothesis between 1953-79 when we were close allies with the Shah and sold him all kind of good things like fighter jets and an experimental nuclear reactor. I assume you would posit that due to the behavior of the SAVAK that the us was still at war with the Iranian people. So again we must be doing bad things to them, undermining them, killing them, keeping them poor etc...

The problem is we are not responsible for the plight of the Iranian people. The clerical leadership is responsible. The US did not declare war in 53. The mullahs declared war in 1979. First sidelining and destroying the secular forces of the revolution and then setting up an Islamic state that effectively outlaws secular political change.

How is that Eisenhower's fault?

I'm not saying we are not imperialist. I am not saying that 1953 was a good decision, or just. I'm not saying the Shah was a good or capable leader. I'm only saying that the last 54 years have not been war. Gives us a few weeks and MAYBE we'll see what war looks like.

The Iranian people are free to have whatever government they like but they have to deal with the consequences of that government, just like I have to live with the consequences of my government. When the Iranian ppl let the mullahs seize power they determined lot of what the next 30 years would look like; including how they would be treated by the USA. You see, my government also has the right to have a foreign policy that looks after its interests, just like Iran.

I'd like a response to the force of my argument, not just some phrase that you find convenient to use as a straw man.

[NotMyBlood]

I think we should assume we are a target when any country/leadership refers to us as the Great Satan. Where do you go from there?

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow is that Eisenhower's fault?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', ' ')it is the fault of America for supporting Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran, supplying him with weapons

[oildrinker]

Can Iran pose a genuine threat to US soil?

[Plantagenet]

The complete inversion of the facts by Mekrob is disengenuous.

Iran was a major US ally prior to the fall of the Shah, and the Iranian army was equipped by the U.S. The Iranian forces in the Iran-Iraq war were still largely using US arms. Iraq was a soviet ally, and the Iraqi forces in the Iraq-Iran war largely used soviet weapons.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ran was a major US ally prior to the fall of the Shah, and the Iranian army was equipped by the U.S. The Iranian forces in the Iran-Iraq war were still largely using US arms. Iraq was a soviet ally, and the Iraqi forces in the Iraq-Iran war largely used soviet weapons.

[wisconsin_cur]

We also supply arms to Taiwan, this does not mean that we are at war with China. we sell arms to Pakistan this does not mean that we are at war with India... heck we sell weapons to them too. We sold weapons to Afghanistan, we were not at war with the Soviets. We practically give arms to Israel and we are not at war with Syria, Hamas, or Hezbollah. We sell arms to Fatah. We sell arms to Uzbeckistan and Yemen it doesn't mean that were at war with... um... you know whoever they have to be afraid of. We sell arms to tyrants, "freedom fighters," and generally anyone who hasn't pissed us off enough for us to say that we should not sell arms to them.

This makes us greedy, opportunisitic and perhaps shortsighted. It does not make us at war with the world.

Would we love to see the Islamic Republic become a sad memory? Of course we would, it is as much an insult to Western values as Western values are to the handful of Mullahs that run the place. Are we at war with Iran? Once and for all, no. War looks different, smells different, sounds different is different.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
The US did not supply arms to Saddam in his war against Iran.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e also supply arms to Taiwan, this does not mean that we are at war with China.

[Plantagenet]

Lets look at the numbers and facts rather then accept at face values the wild claims from folks who already have been shown to be disengenuous on this subject. From the same Wikipedia article linked to above, here is a list of the major arms suppliers to Iraq:

The sources of Iraqi arms purchases between 1970 and 1990 (10% of the world market during this period) are estimated to be:
Suppliers in Billions (1985 $US) % of total
Soviet Union 19.2 61
France 5.5 18
People's Republic of China 1.7 5
Brazil 1.1 4
Egypt 1.1 4
Other countries 2.9 6
Total 31.5 98.0


The US was the primary supporter of Israel and Iran, while the Soviets (and the French) supplied Iraq. Any US arms supplied to Iraq during the time of the Iraq-Iran war were negligible compared to those from their major suppliers (see table).

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ets look at the numbers and facts rather then accept at face values the wild claims from folks who already have been shown to be disengenuous on this subject.

[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e also supply arms to Taiwan, this does not mean that we are at war with China.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '[')
You can't look at pure numbers of military aid.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In that case Iran is at war with Lebanon and Israel and whatever Israel does to them is justified because Iran is supporting Hamas and Hezballah.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')f course you can.