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Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 13:45:37

It's most interesting to see all the different perspectives on this subject. Good comments, all, mmasters especially.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby dbruning » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 14:37:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's like, if your house was about to collapse, would you invite some guests into your house??


Absolutely, I'd invite 200-300 of the people I like least in the world for a BBQ...

...waste not, want not ;)
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 17:23:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Johnston', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', '
')
Save the planet by not breeding? Sounds like you want a pristine earth with no human inhabitants (if we were all as righteous as you and had no children). That is just the same sort of stupid fundamentalism that leads others to blow up themselves up while taking out as many others as possible. They got their dream of a perfect caliphate, you got a dream of an earth without we ugly primates, both are self righteous both condemn those who disagree.

You can have your self-righteousness, I'll keep my kids and maybe even have a few more to boot.


I still don't know how a peak-oil believer could have children. You would have to be insane.

It's like, if your house was about to collapse, would you invite some guests into your house??


My house is not collapsing. it is the empire of my oppressor who is on the verge of collapse. Will this be a hard change for me? Sure. Is it hopeless? No because I am not dependent upon this whore of a culture to feed me, entertain me, keep me warm or to give me my sense of individual worth. Me and mine have been degraded over the last few centuries by those who value perception over reality and short term gain over long term responsibility. They shouldn't be having kids because they are just giving birth to more parasites, parasites which will soon be expelled from the beast. My kids will actually be able to produce something for themselves.

I should be paid to have more kids.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby JPL » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 20:03:14

Oh for God's sakes it's not that difficult. The Oil-based-economy collapses, we all get a lot poorer, we all (in the developed nations)end up living a Third-World lifestyle - the exact quality of which depends on where we live (viz local climate etc).

It's not that difficult to figure out. Plus, we had to do it anyhow because of Global Warming. So, can we on with things now, please?

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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby kjmclark » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 21:37:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'S')ome of us have made the choice not to have children. What the hell was your reason to procreate? Socrates spoke about the ego of mankind and the desire to live 'eternally' through his offspring. I thought it was a nice fluff for the basic human condition.

If you're truly worried about our global predicament please don't breed.


Well, first, we had our two children before I realized that Peak Oil was going to be a problem. It didn't look that bad when I first read about it a decade ago. "Sustainability and Cities" only barely touched on the problem. You could say I discovered the problem a little too late.

Second, I'm still not convinced that humanity is going to be wiped out. While I think it's immoral to have more than two children, I think we'd all be fine if we really tried to deal with this problem and limited fertility to no more than replacement, since many people would decide to not have kids or only have one. This would set humanity up for controlled population decline. However, I do agree that we aren't likely to deal with the problem until it's tremendously painful and human populations are more likely to be reduced through famine, war, and disease. As I said, it's now my duty to get them through whatever happens as best I can.

Third, I'm already fixed - no more breeding for me!

Finally, if you're concerned about our predicament, use less energy. I think I can safely say that there are few in the developed world who are farther along that path than my family.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 21:45:34

Our obsession with the future is certainly a double-edged sword; providing us with the ability to imagine various future scenarios and to plan accordingly, but at the same time engendering that uniquely human emotion, anxiety.

I think that's a large part of the function of this forum for many people - a way of sharing our anxieties about the future.

The human psyche doesn't function well under conditions where it perceives the future to be worse than the present.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 21:48:59

Why is it moral to have two children? If it is immoral to have more than two? Two still grow the population at an unsustainable rate, especially if those two are First World children, the ones who use 30 times as many resources as the other kids...





Anyway, I think it odd people seem to think it's ok to have two kids.....I don't see their reasoning, personally.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby kjmclark » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 21:49:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Johnston', 'I') still don't know how a peak-oil believer could have children. You would have to be insane.

It's like, if your house was about to collapse, would you invite some guests into your house??


I think you mean that you don't know how a doomer could have children. You have to remember that not all of us are convinced that the Olduvai Gorge is the future. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but I think I can steer my kids and a few others into a future no worse than the Amish and most likely a good deal better than that. I could certainly be wrong.

And again, I had kids before I understood the potential for trouble.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 22:16:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'T')he human psyche doesn't function well under conditions where it perceives the future to be worse than the present.


Interesting remark. So what do we do in response? Party like mad, in a desperate attempt to "escape into the present"?

Apparently not. Our society, as a whole, is stultifyingly conservative. Not having much fun at all.

Except for the orgy of materialism, that is.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby kjmclark » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 22:17:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy is it moral to have two children? If it is immoral to have more than two? Two still grow the population at an unsustainable rate, especially if those two are First World children, the ones who use 30 times as many resources as the other kids...

Anyway, I think it odd people seem to think it's ok to have two kids.....I don't see their reasoning, personally.


First, I disagree that two or less grows the population. If everyone limited themselves to replacement or less, than population would fall at a rate depending on death rates and longevity rates. If the population continued to grow, it wouldn't be for much longer. That formula is responsible for declining native populations in much of Western Europe. I think you're assuming that I mean that everyone *must* have two kids per couple, which I didn't say or mean. I mean couples could have zero, one, or two children, and it's immoral to have more at this point.

I believe it is immoral to use resources unsustainably. So, yes, the way most people in the developed world live strikes me as immoral. That doesn't mean that someone in the developed world has to live unsustainably. I think in the not-too-distant future the developed world's resource use is going to revert closer to the mean.

So, from my perspective, limiting births to replacement or less, and reducing energy use to sustainable levels would resolve the morality problems. Frankly, if it were somehow possible for everyone to have 10 kids and for humanity to live sustainably, I think I would have to say having 10 kids would be moral in my book. (Note that this means I don't think it was immoral for stone- or even most iron-age humans to have had large families.) At this point, I don't think that's really feasible.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 23:10:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'I') believe it is immoral to use resources unsustainably. So, yes, the way most people in the developed world live strikes me as immoral. That doesn't mean that someone in the developed world has to live unsustainably. I think in the not-too-distant future the developed world's resource use is going to revert closer to the mean.


Unfortunately, that means dieoff of some portion of the developed world's children.

Although children are an aspect of the future, may I interject that this discussion about children is not really what I intended for this thread?
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 03:41:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'T')he human psyche doesn't function well under conditions where it perceives the future to be worse than the present.


Interesting remark. So what do we do in response? Party like mad, in a desperate attempt to "escape into the present"?

Apparently not. Our society, as a whole, is stultifyingly conservative. Not having much fun at all.

Except for the orgy of materialism, that is.

H, you're right, in many ways our society isn't having much fun, despite the veneer of materialism. Many of us seem to have lost the ability to truly appreciate the present. Maybe this is the silver lining of 'doomerism' - it helps us to appreciate what we have now.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 09:38:48

Being a doomer has made me, increasingly, spurn or resent many---not all---of the trappings of modern civilization. Where I want to go is the past, taking along with me a few bits and pieces of the present (like basic modern dentistry), but leaving behind the vast infrastructure, the landscape of waste.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Elan_Rasa » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 17:05:41

I don't Long for the past,
I don't Live for the present,
I don't Hope for a better future.


If you Long for the past, you get stuck there.
If you Live for the present you focus on satisfying personal wants and needs.
If you Hope for a better future, you are simply Delusional.

Best, ER
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby kjmclark » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 17:28:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'I') think in the not-too-distant future the developed world's resource use is going to revert closer to the mean.


Unfortunately, that means dieoff of some portion of the developed world's children.

Although children are an aspect of the future, may I interject that this discussion about children is not really what I intended for this thread?


In terms of dieoff, I understand that many doomers believe that, but using less energy in the developed world does not require dieoff. It may happen, but it isn't necessary.

I also understand that a discussion about children wasn't what you intended, but that strikes me as a fault of your intent, not of the discussion. You asked why people are obsessed with the future. For a lot of people with kids or grandkids, if they are obsessed with the future, the children and their lives are a big part of their obsession with the future. Let's not forget that for people in the less developed world, children are one's retirement plan. And, no matter how you look at it, without children, there isn't much of a future for humanity, is there?
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 23:10:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Elan_Rasa', 'I') don't Long for the past,
I don't Live for the present,
I don't Hope for a better future.


If you Long for the past, you get stuck there.
If you Live for the present you focus on satisfying personal wants and needs.
If you Hope for a better future, you are simply Delusional.

Best, ER


Very nice, ER.

But where does all that leave you?
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby Heineken » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 23:20:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', 'I') think in the not-too-distant future the developed world's resource use is going to revert closer to the mean.


Unfortunately, that means dieoff of some portion of the developed world's children.

Although children are an aspect of the future, may I interject that this discussion about children is not really what I intended for this thread?


In terms of dieoff, I understand that many doomers believe that, but using less energy in the developed world does not require dieoff. It may happen, but it isn't necessary.

I also understand that a discussion about children wasn't what you intended, but that strikes me as a fault of your intent, not of the discussion. You asked why people are obsessed with the future. For a lot of people with kids or grandkids, if they are obsessed with the future, the children and their lives are a big part of their obsession with the future. Let's not forget that for people in the less developed world, children are one's retirement plan. And, no matter how you look at it, without children, there isn't much of a future for humanity, is there?


A fault of my intent? What does that mean?

Dieoff is necessary, kjm. It's the only way nature's balance, which is currently wildly out of whack---the result of our one-time, outlandish, fossil-fuel-fueled reproductive success---can be restored. See our MonteQuest for more info. on that.

Your views about children are the traditional ones. Entirely understandable. But they will soon be archaic, and tragic.

I love children very much, but I'm glad I never had any. This was partly intentional and partly the roll of the dice.

I'm sure that if I had children I would be as defensive about them as you are. I'm sure I'd protect them to my last breath, and that some of my key beliefs and principles about other things would go out the window.

That's what happens when people have children---decent people, anyway. And it's a reason why there are too damned many of them.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 22 Jun 2007, 04:11:54

Enlightening communities as to what's coming is what is needed now, not having more children. Building community is a good thing any way you look at it.

Contemplating the future is one thing that makes us human in the first place. I don't see many gophers mulling over what's coming next.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby kjmclark » Fri 22 Jun 2007, 07:41:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'A') fault of my intent? What does that mean?

Dieoff is necessary, kjm. It's the only way nature's balance, which is currently wildly out of whack---the result of our one-time, outlandish, fossil-fuel-fueled reproductive success---can be restored. See our MonteQuest for more info. on that.

Your views about children are the traditional ones. Entirely understandable. But they will soon be archaic, and tragic.

I'm sure that if I had children I would be as defensive about them as you are. I'm sure I'd protect them to my last breath, and that some of my key beliefs and principles about other things would go out the window.

That's what happens when people have children---decent people, anyway. And it's a reason why there are too damned many of them.


The intent bit meant that you asked a question about why people think about the future, intending a certain discussion, and ended up with a discussion about the future, but in a way that you hadn't intended. If you ask a question about self defense, and get a conversation about guns when you intended a conversation about fences, you should have asked a less general question.

We don't need a dieoff, we need a large energy use reduction. We may get there through lots of people dying, but it would work just as well to reduce our energy use and reduce our population more slowly. Again, I'm not saying lots of people won't die prematurely, just that it isn't inevitable.

Finally, I most certainly do not have the traditional views about children. Look around you, how many families think it's immoral to have more than two children? That would turn the teachings of many of the world's religions on their heads. Changing "go forth and multiply" into "have no more than two children lest ye be damned" would be quite a switch.

So let me turn it around. What's the point of being obsessed about the future if not to be concerned about the future of humanity? The Earth and nature will get by without us, even if we've screwed up the planet compared to Holocene standards. Is it just the rest of your lifetime that you mean by the future? If you're concerned about the future of humanity, how can you not be concerned about the children? They are the future of humanity.
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Re: Why Are We So Obsessed with the Future?

Unread postby TheTurtle » Fri 22 Jun 2007, 08:34:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kjmclark', ' ')If you're concerned about the future of humanity, how can you not be concerned about the children? They are the future of humanity.


Well, just to play devil's advocate, there are people (several on these forums, in fact) who think that the future of humanity lies in leaving the biological behind us and moving our consciousness into some sort of nano-articulated matrix. Their thoughts of the future would be very different than your own.

Please note, I find such transhumanist musings to be most hubristic. :shock:
Also, FWIW, with our breeding days reasonably behind us, my wife and I managed to limit ourselves to two children. They will both probably cope with a post-peak world far better than I will.
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