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Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Buff » Tue 30 Jan 2007, 19:31:23

Ludi you are killing me! :) No I don't think of air conditioning as waste, but I get what you are saying. Do you think of heating as waste? Or only the part that keeps the pipes from freezing - all excess above that being waste? Air conditioning (making it warmer or cooler) could be considered waste if want to define it that way - homo sapiens has certainly survived without either. Beyond survival how does one define waste? Refrigeration is also waste if you want to go to extremes.

I am biased but no, honestly I choose not to define air conditioning as waste. I would say the difference in energy used to stay comfortable between an energy efficient building and the same buiding not as efficient as waste.

Thuja - I have only lurked on a few threads but yes there are some strong opinions about from some very smart and folks who disagree with the idea that it is possible to keep our civilization functioning. I really think it is possible it could go either way. But I don't tend to agree with the most pessimistic of estimates of how long the fossil fuels will last, and therfore I think it is possible we will transition successfully.

One example of the disagreement is how long we could use coal as an alternative liquid fuel. CTL - coal to liquid is an example of using a fossil fuel to replace oil. Of course it too will someday be exhausted but there is disagreement on how much coal there is (in barrel of oil equivalents), disagreement on the EROEI, disagreements on how or if we can use the coal in a more environmentally sensitive way, etc. etc.

Some say there is coal to last hundreds of years. Some say not. Some say our population growth will go on indefinitely. Some say not, that the trend is slowing growth that will end in zero growth within 50 years. Some believe energy consumption per person can only grow with the industrializing of the 3rd world. Some say our per capita energy use is declining. Some say we can extend the use of the remaining oil by using alternatives for non-liquid applications and through conservation. Others say that the amounts needed are so large that the alternatives don't have a chance of meeting our needs.

I don't know. But as you say people are crafty. Never know what they are capable of when the chips are down. I don't know if there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Transition to what? I really don't know. A future where the energy inputs are from the sun and possibly from fission or fusion. A future with a sustainble economy that does not depend on growth to function. What unknowns are out there? What has our species discovered and invented that would have been unimaginable 50 years ago, 100 years ago or more?

OK - I am guilty of being an optimist.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 30 Jan 2007, 21:15:12

:-D Buff, to me air-conditioning is a luxury, and I live in a very hot part of the country. So, I guess one person's necessity is another person's "waste." Refrigeration is also a luxury - billions of people do not have it.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 31 Jan 2007, 04:21:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ':')-D Buff, to me air-conditioning is a luxury, and I live in a very hot part of the country. So, I guess one person's necessity is another person's "waste." Refrigeration is also a luxury - billions of people do not have it.


Free air con in summer?
I did it like that:

1. Fitted ventilation window in cellar.
2. Tailed cellar walls & floor and made an order there, to stop "musty" smells forming etc.
3. Made air passage connecting cellar with bedrooms (this may be closed during winter).
4. Bedrooms ventilation ducts serve to ensure air circulation.

It works well, does not require any service at all and does not use electricity or similar energy source.
Easy and not wasteful...you may even try it yourself...
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 31 Jan 2007, 11:05:17

That's free if you have a cellar. :)
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 19 Jun 2007, 23:33:12

Ok, we have been quietly waiting for peak oil to arrive. The numbers say we are there...so far.

Many have cried, "See?" "Two years post -peak and no zombies, no collapse.

Will we only know the peak in hindsight, thus it will come like a thief in the night?

Is it here when Saudi Arabia says they have no spare capacity?

Is it when the markets implode when the CW is no more growth?

What are the signs or events that signal the peak has truly arrived?

What say you?
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Zardoz » Tue 19 Jun 2007, 23:47:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')hat say you?

We have yet to see a refinery operator state publicly that they cannot get enough crude feedstock to make all the finished product they can sell. To me, that's the watershed event. That will be the date we will remember as the beginning of the permanent oil shortage.

Until then, we're on the plateau, delicately balancing supply and demand, watching prices fluctuate even as they continue their relentless overall upward trend. When the refineries start getting starved, all that will change, won't it? We all know what will happen then.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby XOVERX » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 01:14:01

PO became inevitable when the first oil well was drilled in Poland.

The question then became one of timing.

The actual Peak, at least for liquids, has likely already passed, July of 2006.

If so, then where are PO's "deleterious effects?"

Well, they're here right now. Accumulating in civilization like plaque in arteries. Slowing. Imperceptibly. But surely.

Great instability in the oil markets. A shortage here. A brownout there. Short-lived. But real.

And a massive infarction can happen, literally any day, with a simple miscalculation in the body politic.

For example, the US could bomb Iran. Maybe Iran really can take out whole parts of the ME oilfields? Maybe Pakistan and all of its nuclear weapons fall into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists?

And there you have it. The patient falls to the floor, clutching at his chest. Maybe he dies. Maybe he stays alive.

But he's never the same.

PO is here. We can only hope that it's worst manifestations might somehow, someway, be avoided. At least for a while longer.

And so is demonstrated the nature of wishful thinking.

Patience. If one lives long enough, he will see all things.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 01:24:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('XOVERX', ' ')The actual Peak, at least for liquids, has likely already passed, July of 2006.


The latest EIA numbers for those new to peak oil.

Executive Summary:

Monthly production records are unchanged except for NGPL:
All Liquids: the peak is still July 2006 at 85.43 mbpd, the year to date average production in 2007 (2 months) is 84.26 mbpd, up 0.2 mbpd from 2006.

Crude Oil + NGL: the peak date remains May 2005 at 82.08 mbpd, the year to date average production for 2007 (2 months) is 81.24 mbpd, down 0.06 mbpd from 2006.

Crude Oil + Condensate: the peak date remains May 2005 at 74.15 mbpd, the year to date average production for 2007 (2 months) is 73.09 mbpd, down 0.25 mbpd from 2006.

NGPL: the peak date is now February 2007 at 8.24 mbpd, the year to date average production for 2007 (2 months) is 8.15 mbpd, up 0.19 mbpd from 2006.

Decline in crude oil + condensate continues: February 2007 estimate for crude oil + condensate is 73.35 mbpd compared to 73.47 mbpd one year ago.

New forecasts added: Projections from Frederik Robelius and the Hybrid Shock Model.

Average forecast: the average forecast for crude oil + NGL based on 12 different projections is showing a kind of production plateau around 83 +/- 4 mbpd with a decline after 2010 +/- 1 year.
(14 June 2007)
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby bobcousins » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 09:03:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')s it here when Saudi Arabia says they have no spare capacity?

Is it when the markets implode when the CW is no more growth?

What are the signs or events that signal the peak has truly arrived?

What say you?


For some reason, humans like to see things as black or white, but reality is shades of grey. There never will be a day, a week or even a year when peak arrives and life suddenly changes.

I've always said that PO will be a long affair, not just decades but centuries, and few people have the patience to sit and watch that long.

Partly the problem comes from the Hubbert curve, there is an inflection point at the peak. To humans, this means there is a paradigm change. But look at the logistic production profile:

Image

The transition from more to less is gradual, you can't pick a point where "something happens".

There is no reason to think that price will suddenly shoot to $200/bbl or beyond and stay there. The nature of supply and demand is that is too will create a regime of steadily increasing prices, although there may be price spikes.

It is possible that in a complex system there is a tipping point, where things flip into a new state. However, if there is one, no one knows what it is. All the processes we can see are smooth linear functions.

Even if PO becomes more widely recognised, it's a gradual thing, not a sudden sea-change. See what happens with Global Warming. Market traders won't all become PO believers overnight.

Anthropologists define "sudden collapse" of a civilisation as something that takes less than 300 years. If anyone is expecting PO to be an event that happens one day, they will be disappointed.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Valdemar » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 09:54:31

You think the crash will take centuries? We don't have centuries of oil in even the most blatantly optimistic scenario. That, and applying the standard Hubbert curve doesn't fit when we're talking about export-land and related geo-political factors. There's no reason to say anyone will even get access to $200 oil even if that price came about, because the exporters will be too busy trying to look after their own as is the case today.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 10:55:47

I write this post, based on my opinions formed from reading these forums relentlessly for the past few months, and following the po story for 2 years. I think the simplest answers are often the right ones, even if the subject matter is horrendously complected.

I'm a lights out doomer myself, and firmly believe that one day things will be relatively normal (albeit much more expensive then they currently are) then, just like that, the American stock market will crash (after a few days/months of constant decline). Chaos will follow, Most of us will probably die within a few weeks/years after.

The economy can either grow or crash, there will be no steady decline, and no recovery without an abundant supply of cheap energy.

I think the dieoff will be much quicker then most do. No fresh water for a week will see many sent to an early grave. Most people would have no idea how to seek fresh water , and it's plausible most source of fresh water will get polluted pretty quickly after PO anyway as industry collapses.

I just hope this happens before we have chance to get to work depleting the coal supply's (although, burning some coal after the crash might stop the almost inevitable Co2 depletion and help the plants of the world decline at a slow rate, rather then sucking all the co2 out of the air)

And I've only just touched on the doom. while there are many strong arguments for it based on history and fact in times when things were not as extreme, the arguments against are normally just wishful thinking in science. Even with unlimited oil, we would still be doomed, more doomed, even. Peak oil might just save us (as a species I mean, you will still be pretty screwed ;) )

Unless you have children, fuck worrying about peak oil and live like theres no tomorrow. It's almost insulting to those who are suffering and are about to suffer for us not to enjoy the party. It's to late to really prepare if you are stuck in a job in the city. Maybe stocking up on 2 years worth of dried/tinned food and water will give you a fighting chance.

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we are all still here talking about this in 2010. very surprised.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby bobcousins » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 11:04:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Valdemar', 'Y')ou think the crash will take centuries? We don't have centuries of oil in even the most blatantly optimistic scenario. That, and applying the standard Hubbert curve doesn't fit when we're talking about export-land and related geo-political factors. There's no reason to say anyone will even get access to $200 oil even if that price came about, because the exporters will be too busy trying to look after their own as is the case today.


You see the problem with guys like you is that you are obsessed with oil, but oil is only a fraction of energy use, and oil won't disappear over night. It will decline slowly over decades. Additionally, if we stop maintaining infrastructure now, it will take many years before it becomes totally unusable. Our current energy boom started over 100 years ago, so it is expected that it declines over a similar period.

I am sorry that collapse is too slow for you, but this is what anthropology and archaeology tell us. People and societies don't go quietly into oblivion, they are dragged kicking and screaming. It takes time.

Of course, the USA can collapse tomorrow if you wish. Then you'all can start shooting zombies, I know you are itching for it. :roll:
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby Valdemar » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 11:18:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Valdemar', 'Y')ou think the crash will take centuries? We don't have centuries of oil in even the most blatantly optimistic scenario. That, and applying the standard Hubbert curve doesn't fit when we're talking about export-land and related geo-political factors. There's no reason to say anyone will even get access to $200 oil even if that price came about, because the exporters will be too busy trying to look after their own as is the case today.


You see the problem with guys like you is that you are obsessed with oil, but oil is only a fraction of energy use, and oil won't disappear over night. It will decline slowly over decades. Additionally, if we stop maintaining infrastructure now, it will take many years before it becomes totally unusable. Our current energy boom started over 100 years ago, so it is expected that it declines over a similar period.

I am sorry that collapse is too slow for you, but this is what anthropology and archaeology tell us. People and societies don't go quietly into oblivion, they are dragged kicking and screaming. It takes time.

Of course, the USA can collapse tomorrow if you wish. Then you'all can start shooting zombies, I know you are itching for it. :roll:


I love how you back all this up after character assassination. It really convinces me. One has to wonder why you even post here. Looking over your past history, you seem rather trollish.

Incidentally, who said I was expecting us to go from prosperous First World nation to cavemen overnight? I certainly didn't say that, and my idea of collapse involves resource wars, abundant poverty, general decline in energy available per capita and social tension.

That you still pointed out oil is a small fraction of our energy expenditure reeks of inability to comprehend what this whole discussion is about. So I take it the UK didn't have any problems when petrol prices were hitting people hard and protests became the norm in the late 2000 blockades?

I suggest actually reading TOD for once too. Think of it this way. Nothing here is beyond our technical abilities to figure out and maintain some semblance of normality. Look at New Orleans. Notice how it's still very much a city that looks like it got hit by a hurricane over 18 months back and nothing happened afterwards? What happened? New Orleans could have been rebuilt by now, good as new, if we applied ourselves. That the world's only superpower hasn't done this yet, despite having the technology, money and manpower, is quite an illustrative point.

Technology is not the issue. Never was. The people that look on this and say "I see no problem. We just build nuke reactors, get people to cut back and invest money into renewables while switching to an EV as they move into the cities from suburbia" are the people who are missing the biggest problem: the human element. Factor in the psychology, sociology and politics, and what was an easy problem from the viewpoint of an engineer or would-be idealist, is not so easy in practice. In practice, world hunger and poverty shouldn't be a problem now, yet they are.

But by all means, keep touting collapse as being centuries long, as if the path on our way there with all the hardship that entails means nothing.
Last edited by Valdemar on Wed 20 Jun 2007, 11:27:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby What_Went_Wrong » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 11:21:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')
You see the problem with guys like you is that you are obsessed with oil, but oil is only a fraction of energy use

:roll: Not true. And oil is so much more to us. You must understand that after 1000+ posts here?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
')It will decline slowly over decades.

:lol:
You do know that it's harder to get the 2nd half out the ground then the first half? Ever eaten a pot of yogurt? Think if that. (just trying to put it simply for you)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '
') Our current energy boom started over 100 years ago, so it is expected that it declines over a similar period.


Now see, it's you that's obsessed with oil. If you honesty believe the economy can shrink at a steady rate as oil declines, you have not been looking at the bigger picture at all.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby IslandCrow » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 11:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '.').. but oil is only a fraction of energy use, and oil won't disappear over night. It will decline slowly over decades. Additionally, if we stop maintaining infrastructure now, it will take many years before it becomes totally unusable. Our current energy boom started over 100 years ago, so it is expected that it declines over a similar period.


Fraction: according to the graph on page 42 of BP's annual review oil is 4 000 out of 11 000 million tons of oil equivalent of all energy sources. A significant fraction.

Decline over a similar period: If it follows a bell curve YES, but population will not start declining when oil does...there will be year's delay, so the amount of energy available per person will decrease faster than it increased on the up slope, which spells trouble.

BTW, I am expecting more a 'long emergency' situation, but much shorter than you seem to.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 15:58:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')There is no reason to think that price will suddenly shoot to $200/bbl or beyond and stay there.


No, it could well shoot to $200/barrel and rise from there.

I think this is the most likely scenario.

A huge price spike from the markets.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby smiley » Wed 20 Jun 2007, 17:57:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou see the problem with guys like you is that you are obsessed with oil, but oil is only a fraction of energy use, and oil won't disappear over night. It will decline slowly over decades.


From a global perspective you're right, from a personal perspective you're not.

Think of electricity. If you have a shortage it does not mean that the lights all start to dim, that you get 58W instead of 60W. What happens is that some parts of the grid are cut off. You will either be with the lucky ones which have ligh or sitting in the dark with the unlucky ones.

A global smooth decline can be pretty catastrophal on a local and personal level.
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby zoidberg » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 02:23:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('What_Went_Wrong', 'I') write this post, based on my opinions formed from reading these forums relentlessly for the past few months, and following the po story for 2 years. I think the simplest answers are often the right ones, even if the subject matter is horrendously complected.

I'm a lights out doomer myself, and firmly believe that one day things will be relatively normal (albeit much more expensive then they currently are) then, just like that, the American stock market will crash (after a few days/months of constant decline). Chaos will follow, Most of us will probably die within a few weeks/years after.

...

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we are all still here talking about this in 2010. very surprised.


Everyone has a vital interest in avoiding that scenario and will willingly choose the necessary sacrifices to avoid an all out collapse.

It is a mistake to underestimate the survival drive. Its got billions of years of evolution behind it. We're not going to burn it all down - some people might try, but they'll be killed/imprisoned, the vehicle for this force will be the central governments -which will be at the height of their size during the peak. I dont see them playing a role further down the road - but for 2010 time period your worried about they'll be the ticket, for some good old fashioned rationing, employing mass violence, and providing a central rallying point.

Plus we can generate significant quantities of electricity now and for a good deal in the future as well. We can make *some* biofuels. We can melt *some* oil out of the oil sands without natural gas. Not a million barrels a days, but we can find the resources to plop a nuke plant in there to keep it running for some decades. Its not the endless bonanza we've all grown up with, but its workable.

One caveat: Increased localization will mean some regions will bear a heavier burden. The American southwest will no doubt face a great migration, but my locale around Winnipeg will probably be alright, with a 100% hydro generated power and substantial opportunities for river transport, and good deal of arable land around us, and lots of fresh water. And we're a nice railway hub as well :P.

Another point, lets say essential services in Miami collapse, and disease and unrest run rampant. Well now I'd say that some of that demand destruction just freed up resources for other regions. I wouldn't expect Miami to recover either, but thats point, once theres enough regional collapses, remaining power centers will have enough renewable resources to extend a hegemonic control over the less advantageous centers. Or at least hold chaotic regions at bay.

Another scenario - should things become tight, I think the east asians may attempt to sabotage the American economy by dumping their massive dollar reserves - It'll hurt them plenty in the short run, but America consume 25% of world production! Point being, that'll keep some parts of the world running.

I'm looking for a series of disjointed, unpredictable, regional collapses. Not exactly utopia, but an end of civilization in 3 years?

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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby rdberg1957 » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 04:20:16

I haven't seen much posting about this yet. Have you seen the Chevron announcements on public television. "Some say half of all oil will be used by 2020, others say it already has . . .

This is the closest to public admission of peak oil I've seen from any oil company. Have I missed a thread here?`
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Re: Waiting for Peak Oil...Quietly Waiting

Unread postby azreal60 » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 08:43:54

No, you haven't. Honestly, I think peak oil already came. We are now starting to see the early effects.

I think the middle of the road is going to be the name of the game unless something else happens. Birdflu, nuclear war, something along those lines. It's going to be a long painful slide, but the end result Will be exactly the same as the fast crash, just over alot more time.

I would also say keep that day job, unless the unconventional job your going too will provide you that sustainable future you crave. And keep in mind, that unconventional job better be sustainable Post peak in addition to during Peak.
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