Man Discovers Solution To Energy Crisis?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rense.com', 'I')s the solution to America's energy needs as simple as a trip to the beach?
The idea is a fascinating one as a Florida man searching for a cancer cure may have stumbled onto a virtually limitless source of energy: salt water.
John Kanzius, 63, is a broadcast engineer who formerly owned several TV and radio stations, before retiring in Sanibel Island, Fla. ...
Kanzius discovered his machine could do what some may have thought was impossible: making water burn. "On our way to try to do desalinization, we came up with something that burns, and it looks in this case that salt water perhaps could be used as a fuel to replace the carbon footsteps that we've been using all these years, i.e., fossil fuels," Kanzius said.
The possible ramifications of the discovery are almost mind-boggling, as http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... _ID=55934#
cars could be fueled by salt water instead of gasoline, hydroelectric plants could be built along the shore, and homes could be heated without worrying about supplies of oil.
"It doesn't have to be ocean salt water," Kanzius said. "It burns just as well when we add salt to tap water." Kanzius has partnered with Charles Rutkowski, general manager of Industrial Sales and Manufacturing, a Millcreek, Pa., company that builds the radio-wave generators.
"I've done this [burning experiment] countless times and it still amazes me," Rutkowski told the Erie Times-News. "Here we are paying $3 a gallon for gas, and this is a device that seems to turn salt water into an alternative fuel." ...
PeakOil is You
John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source? NOT
John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source? NOT
by Carlhole » Sat 09 Jun 2007, 20:47:42
Ok, I was working out in the gym the other day and chatting with an acquaintence of mine between sets. The subject of gas prices came up, one thing led to another and before you know it, I was explaining all about Peak Oil.
"Not so fast", said my friend, and he directed to me to some website that told about some guy who directed radio waves at salt water and produced a flame. "We could just adapt our cars to burn salt water", said he. And he wouldn't even listen to my protests about energy having to come from somewhere. Needless to say, I didn't bother tracking down his info.
But, lo, here's the story on Rense. So what's up with it? who has heard about it before?
Last edited by Carlhole on Wed 12 Sep 2007, 02:16:37, edited 3 times in total.
- Carlhole
Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
by Carlhole » Sat 09 Jun 2007, 20:51:35
Oops, looks like the link at WorldNetDaily already has the detractions that the Rense version omitted.
Still... strange that radio waves could split a water molecule with the mere addition of a little salt. Hmmm.
Still... strange that radio waves could split a water molecule with the mere addition of a little salt. Hmmm.
- Carlhole
Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
by smallpoxgirl » Sat 09 Jun 2007, 21:22:12
I'd say it's got a 95% chance of just being BS. Heat obviously doesn't convert water into hydrogen. It converts water into steam. *IF* it is somehow true, then the radio waves are setting up enough of an electric current in the water to produce electrolysis.
This sort of ability to separate compounds into their constituent ions is where "ionizing radiation" (aka radioactivity) gets it's name.
Regardless, there is absolutely no way this is an energy source.
This sort of ability to separate compounds into their constituent ions is where "ionizing radiation" (aka radioactivity) gets it's name.
Regardless, there is absolutely no way this is an energy source.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
by entropyfails » Sat 09 Jun 2007, 22:36:20
They played his device on TV. It does produce a flame from water. However it does this by having a very large microwave beam energy into the water in a very specific manner. (which he has not revealed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lud1qceKqyQ
From that video, we can conclude at least a 4(Na+) + (O2) => 2Na2O or (Na+) + (O^2-) => Na2O reaction. The yellow of the Sodium gives it away. That will obviously free up some hydrogen so we also have a 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O reaction in there as well.
As for EROEI, no one knows. I'd bet it would be negative as it is a super simple thing for him to prove positive. (Calorimeter Energy - Energy used by microwave, both are easy to set up and measure)
My question is if it IS positive with an EROEI of 1.0000000001, will we burn the entire ocean to fuel our civilization?
I hope he gets a patent or publishes a peer reviewed paper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lud1qceKqyQ
From that video, we can conclude at least a 4(Na+) + (O2) => 2Na2O or (Na+) + (O^2-) => Na2O reaction. The yellow of the Sodium gives it away. That will obviously free up some hydrogen so we also have a 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O reaction in there as well.
As for EROEI, no one knows. I'd bet it would be negative as it is a super simple thing for him to prove positive. (Calorimeter Energy - Energy used by microwave, both are easy to set up and measure)
My question is if it IS positive with an EROEI of 1.0000000001, will we burn the entire ocean to fuel our civilization?
I hope he gets a patent or publishes a peer reviewed paper.
EntropyFails
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
"Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water Microwave (was Saved!)
by Jack » Sat 09 Jun 2007, 23:42:06
The second law of thermodynamics - it isn't just a good idea, it's the law.
OK, what's going to happen. We send energy into some molecules. The binding energy of those molecules must be overcome. Now we have separate atoms, which can recombine.
There cannot be a net energy gain. Simply cannot.
NaCl is very stable. H2O is, likewise, stable because they produce a lot of energy when the atoms get together. Rip them apart, and it takes energy. Let them recombine, and you get the energy back, less inefficiencies. Entropy increases.
OK, what's going to happen. We send energy into some molecules. The binding energy of those molecules must be overcome. Now we have separate atoms, which can recombine.
There cannot be a net energy gain. Simply cannot.
NaCl is very stable. H2O is, likewise, stable because they produce a lot of energy when the atoms get together. Rip them apart, and it takes energy. Let them recombine, and you get the energy back, less inefficiencies. Entropy increases.
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Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water Microwave (was Saved!)
by Carlhole » Sun 10 Jun 2007, 00:25:30
[flash width=425 height=350]http://www.youtube.com/v/4kKtKSEQBeI[/flash]
John Kanzius discovered that his radio frequency generator could release the oxygen and hydrogen from saltwater and create an incredibly intense flame.
You know, this would be a simple enough experiment for someone here on the board to try to duplicate. It's frustrating that they don't mention the input energy versus the output energy.
I suppose it would be even easier to track down Kanzius email and ask him.
John Kanzius discovered that his radio frequency generator could release the oxygen and hydrogen from saltwater and create an incredibly intense flame.
You know, this would be a simple enough experiment for someone here on the board to try to duplicate. It's frustrating that they don't mention the input energy versus the output energy.
I suppose it would be even easier to track down Kanzius email and ask him.
Last edited by Carlhole on Sun 10 Jun 2007, 00:45:08, edited 2 times in total.
- Carlhole
Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water Microwave (was Saved!)
by Carlhole » Sun 10 Jun 2007, 00:36:45
Re-Oops! I just read over his website and he mentiones the EROEI thing but not disclosing any more about it.
Hmmmm...curious...
John Kanzius' Official Website
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peswiki', 'J')une 06, 2007
John Kanzius write:
"Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information.
"Actually there are smart individuals who have posted on different web sited and actually have a pretty good idea of what is happening."
June 01, 2007
"I am in the process of redesigning the electronics for the saltwater as to see what efficiency we can achieve.
"Why does everyone think this is a form of electrolysis?
"Some scientists who have made comments on certain web sites actually understand the mechanism of action.
"Regarding moving this forward, I want to see what are the best results we can achieve with joules in vs joules out. A chemist in Houston whom I know is going to be doing a couple of things for me this weekend." -- John Kanzius (June 01, 2007)
How it Works
Kanzius is not publicly disclosing the mechanism of action at this time.
He says that the process would not be considered a form of electrolysis.
"It has nothing in common with the Rife concept except the word radio waves....He was supposedly looking for resonant frequencies of the cells themselves. This is nanoparticle technology. The nanoparticles are relatively new in the science and medical world. Gold nanoparticles and carbon nanotubes are the molecules that enter the cancer cells to be thermally destroyed by the non-invasive radio waves..The frequencies themselves are not even close..." (May 27, 2007)
"It does take much sodium to discolor the flame. We have measured the before and after burns and very little sodium has been expended." (May 29, 2007)
"What burns at a temperature of over 1700 C? [Knowing the answer to that question] might take some of the guess work out of the equation." (May 29, 2007)
"PLASMA does and the flame seem to have an electrical quality." -- Jerome E. Goodwin Sr. (May 29, 2007)
On June 2, 2007, 'KightTechnologies' wrote:
"Yes that's how lasers, shielding, and ion winds are created, plasma is dark matter. Just like you slam a ton of particles into a piece of copper at a high rate of speed to make 1 particle of antimatter. Plasma is used in high energy weapons for lasers and pulse based stun weapons. Plasma can wrap around an object in such a way it's an air tight seal, and also make objects invisible to radar by the way radar signals are handled.
"A UV laser binds particles together creating a focused circuit and plasma particles come together to complete the highly conductive circuit, once voltage is applied the current travels along that concentrated path and grounds it's destination. The particles that are acelerated in any given direction apply heavy force and increase distance becoming physical kenetic energy. The higher the voltage and conductivity the output travels a longer distance and the beam burns like lightning or the sun.
"Laser Induced Plasma Channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJF3qBWyUk
Hmmmm...curious...
John Kanzius' Official Website
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peswiki', 'J')une 06, 2007
John Kanzius write:
"Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information.
"Actually there are smart individuals who have posted on different web sited and actually have a pretty good idea of what is happening."
June 01, 2007
"I am in the process of redesigning the electronics for the saltwater as to see what efficiency we can achieve.
"Why does everyone think this is a form of electrolysis?
"Some scientists who have made comments on certain web sites actually understand the mechanism of action.
"Regarding moving this forward, I want to see what are the best results we can achieve with joules in vs joules out. A chemist in Houston whom I know is going to be doing a couple of things for me this weekend." -- John Kanzius (June 01, 2007)
How it Works
Kanzius is not publicly disclosing the mechanism of action at this time.
He says that the process would not be considered a form of electrolysis.
"It has nothing in common with the Rife concept except the word radio waves....He was supposedly looking for resonant frequencies of the cells themselves. This is nanoparticle technology. The nanoparticles are relatively new in the science and medical world. Gold nanoparticles and carbon nanotubes are the molecules that enter the cancer cells to be thermally destroyed by the non-invasive radio waves..The frequencies themselves are not even close..." (May 27, 2007)
"It does take much sodium to discolor the flame. We have measured the before and after burns and very little sodium has been expended." (May 29, 2007)
"What burns at a temperature of over 1700 C? [Knowing the answer to that question] might take some of the guess work out of the equation." (May 29, 2007)
"PLASMA does and the flame seem to have an electrical quality." -- Jerome E. Goodwin Sr. (May 29, 2007)
On June 2, 2007, 'KightTechnologies' wrote:
"Yes that's how lasers, shielding, and ion winds are created, plasma is dark matter. Just like you slam a ton of particles into a piece of copper at a high rate of speed to make 1 particle of antimatter. Plasma is used in high energy weapons for lasers and pulse based stun weapons. Plasma can wrap around an object in such a way it's an air tight seal, and also make objects invisible to radar by the way radar signals are handled.
"A UV laser binds particles together creating a focused circuit and plasma particles come together to complete the highly conductive circuit, once voltage is applied the current travels along that concentrated path and grounds it's destination. The particles that are acelerated in any given direction apply heavy force and increase distance becoming physical kenetic energy. The higher the voltage and conductivity the output travels a longer distance and the beam burns like lightning or the sun.
"Laser Induced Plasma Channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJF3qBWyUk
- Carlhole
Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
by smallpoxgirl » Sun 10 Jun 2007, 00:38:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', 'A')s for EROEI, no one knows.
Any college freshman physics student can do a proof to show that the EROEI has to be less than one. I am amazed that the television stations would let such tripe on the air. There is no energy source in this scheme. Electricity makes radio waves. Radio waves decompose salt water into it's constituents. Fire recombines those components to make salt water. The amount of energy released by the fire will IS the amount of energy input as electricity minus the losses due to inefficiency. This is just a complicated and probably less efficient alternative to hydrolysis.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Re: Saved, I tell ye!! Saved!!!
by Carlhole » Sun 10 Jun 2007, 00:50:14
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', 'A')s for EROEI, no one knows.
Any college freshman physics student can do a proof to show that the EROEI has to be less than one. I am amazed that the television stations would let such tripe on the air. There is no energy source in this scheme. Electricity makes radio waves. Radio waves decompose salt water into it's constituents. Fire recombines those components to make salt water. The amount of energy released by the fire will IS the amount of energy input as electricity minus the losses due to inefficiency. This is just a complicated and probably less efficient alternative to hydrolysis.
Well, apparently there are a whole bunch of discussion groups on this subject already and a scientific eyeballs are on it too.
He's claiming: "Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information. "
Tripe was my impression too. And I wouldn't be surprised if it is. But I can't help but notice that there is alot of curious attention being given this by reputable types.
It seems like such a simple scientific observation - the effect of radio waves on salt water - that I can't help but wonder why I haven't heard of it before.
- Carlhole
