[gg3]

Now we're getting the pendulum back to the midpoint!

Oh, the other thing about multiple families living in close communal quarters is, it's a wonderful way to spread disease, something we can't overlook in the age of emerging diseases and drug resistant strains.

Anyway...

Homes should be built on the basis of two parents and two children. Families that want to overpopulate should have to deal with the side-effects directly.

One of the things I find absurd about modern architecture is the focus on large open indoor spaces for entertaining. Entertaining is a public function, therefore it can go outdoors, or under an awning or temporary shade-structure in the rain.

Dining rooms are archaic; eat-in kitchens are more sensible and can accommodate family dinners plus a couple of guests. A small living room with a moderate couch and a couple of chairs is sufficient for family gatherings, and will lend itself to more reasonably-sized (smaller) media systems. (LCD TV uses less energy than a CRT; plasma uses more, and an audio system for a small room uses very little power.)

Laundry should be accommodated in the kitchen, as it is in Europe. Lugging laundry baskets up & down basement stairs is a major hazard for trip-and-fall injuries, no small concern when medical care becomes more scarce & expensive. Instead the (high-efficiency) washer can go under the kitchen counter, and a clothes line (outdoor or indoor) can be used for drying. The basement should be reserved for storage, workshop, possible teenagers' living room area, and the latter can double as a fallout shelter (yes, really).

Aside from that, most indoor space should be designed for privacy, with multiple smaller rooms rather than few larger ones. Acoustical considerations can't be ignored as they are at present. Multiple smaller rooms also make for more efficient lighting: lower wattage bulbs will provide equal light in a smaller room, to that provided by higher-wattage bulbs in a larger room.

And last but not least, climate control: heat or cool the rooms where people are hanging out and close the doors on the other rooms. Smart heating controls could allow far more flexibility and greater comfort at much lower energy demand, by simply switching heat & cool on and off in each room according to the hours of the day.

People are more likely to adapt to a scaled-back material lifestyle if they at least have the ability to retreat from the world into a little nest that is personal and private and under their own control.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', ' ')People are more likely to adapt to a scaled-back material lifestyle if they at least have the ability to retreat from the world into a little nest that is personal and private and under their own control.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WildRose', 'I') do not wish poverty on anyone, but I think most of us will be having to adjust our expectations downward quite a bit and would be better prepared to do so with a different mindset, one of cooperation and sharing with our neighbors, building better relationships. I guess I am counting on this being possible; I may be wrong but feel I have to try.

[gg3]

Re. Wildrose & design plans: hmm, maybe I'll publish more of that stuff in more detail once I get my site up & running..

Re. Ibon & individualism:

It is not a binary choice between collectivism in a fixed location and individualism on the road. There is and will be the option of individualism in a fixed location (e.g. communities that are more libertarian) and collectivism on the road (traveling tribes).

My stake in that issue is, people who are mobile tend to be distrusted by people who are rooted, because mobility confers the ability to engage in repeated single-iteration transactions that favor "defecting" over "cooperating" (game theory here). I reject the notion that one has to give up the benefits of community & fixed location in order to retain one's freedom, as much as I reject the notion that freedom & individualism require consumerism.

One can have a fixed location, roots in the ground, individuality and liberty, and community, without engaging in all manner of consumer idiocy.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')

Before it's too late to travel anymore easily and affordably I would invite anyone to make a trip to the developing country of your choice and look around you through the prism of the upcoming crisis for clues as to how cultures with more cooperation and less stuff actually function.

[bshirt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')My stake in that issue is, people who are mobile tend to be distrusted by people who are rooted, because mobility confers the ability to engage in repeated single-iteration transactions that favor "defecting" over "cooperating" (game theory here). I reject the notion that one has to give up the benefits of community & fixed location in order to retain one's freedom, as much as I reject the notion that freedom & individualism require consumerism.

One can have a fixed location, roots in the ground, individuality and liberty, and community, without engaging in all manner of consumer idiocy.

[Mircea]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')s the individualism and social isolation we see in American culture today pointing to a trend that will increase in the future or is it more like a swing of a pendulum?

[Cloud9]

While most everyone is ready to abandon the individual in pursuit of the common good, it might be remembered that it is the last lemming to the beach that survives. Under most circumstances, community and cooperation benefit the masses. Nevertheless, there are times when the herd succumbs to a collective psychosis that gives rise to either the inquisition or the purge. I for one will look on any request made by the authorities to lay down my rifle and report to the train station with a great deal of suspicion.

[Mircea]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'N')evertheless, there are times when the herd succumbs to a collective psychosis that gives rise to either the inquisition or the purge. I for one will look on any request made by the authorities to lay down my rifle and report to the train station with a great deal of suspicion.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mircea', ' ')There seems to be an unlimited supply of boogey-men and and scapegoats, so if they're told to go to war, then they will. If that isn't possible, then they'll react as the situation dictates. It would be a very painful 20-25 years to transform the society. Absent any war, you'd probably see society do a complete reversal and revert to a 1940s/1950s style society.

[Mircea]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'R')emember that the painful transformation of society will really be limited to the generations that have to drop the old paradigm. New generations will be born into the transition and they will have a different definition of "pain". The physical pain of hunger and war is of course real for all generations. But the majority of "pain" will be the resistance and denial to adapt to a new paradigm.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he deeper irony is that living fearful lives with a dependency on external objects for your identity is far more painful than the hardships that will follow. Looking at developing countries one always marvels at the degree of contentment one can find living with far less material wealth and far more hardships.

[gg3]

Ten points to Doly for saying in a paragraph what I might have taken two or three to say.

Human neurophysiology is inherently homeostatic. The most obvious example is the sense of hearing, where you go to sleep in a quiet bedroom but are kept awake by a dripping faucet in the kitchen: your audio thresholds have adjusted to the quiet and found a new stasis point, which happens to be sensitive enough to respond to the dripping faucet.

Every human has individual emotional set-points for their emotional repertoire. Adjust the external conditions and the person will soon adjust and return to their baseline state. There are of course outer limits which we define as physical necessities: food, sleep, temperature range, and so on.

The most interesting part of Doly's analysis is the item about degree and intensity and rate of change. One of the ways to break a mammalian brain is to subject the individual to relentless change that exceeds the homeostatic mechanisms' ability to adjust. This can be a matter of degree of change, speed of change, or some combination. (Another way to break a mammal brain is with logical double-binds.) And it can be demonstrated with mice as well as with humans.

---

Ten points to Cloud9 for "the last lemming to the beach survives," and the item about herd psychosis. (Aldous Huxley used the term "herd poisoning," in _Brave New World Revisited_).

---

Historically, tribal societies tended to be highly collectivist, this perhaps by way of survival necessities. We are going to be entering into a most ineresting experiment: the reversion of individualistic cultures to tribal technologies. And the question is, to what degree will this lead to a return of collectivism, or to what degree will individualism be preserved?

That is, will the individual become a subset of the tribe, "property of the group," as it were; or will the tribe be seen as the expression of voluntary cooperation among free individuals?

Me & mine are going for the latter. We shall see.

[Mircea]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'H')istorically, tribal societies tended to be highly collectivist, this perhaps by way of survival necessities. We are going to be entering into a most ineresting experiment: the reversion of individualistic cultures to tribal technologies. And the question is, to what degree will this lead to a return of collectivism, or to what degree will individualism be preserved?

That is, will the individual become a subset of the tribe, "property of the group," as it were; or will the tribe be seen as the expression of voluntary cooperation among free individuals?

Me & mine are going for the latter. We shall see.

[Cloud9]

We already have tribes. Google MS 13.