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THE Oil and Inflation Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby billp » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 19:18:53

Interesting link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere's a good place to start
Shadow Stats


Mainstream corpmedia [George Ure] and other media may be written to shape opinion. Away from the facts?

So its had to tell the facts from the factoids, we think.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o not fear the enemy, for your enemy can only take your life. It is far better that you fear the media, for they will steal your HONOR. That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoemaking and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poorhouse.

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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby Armageddon » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 20:11:47

Inflation isn't the price of goods and services going up in price. The definition of inflation is the influx of money into the monetary system. Inflation is basically the government printing ( inflating ) the money. Then, with more money in circulation, the value of the existing money is decreased in value, causing it to take more money to buy the same things as it did prior to the printing of that money. Now, the only catch is, that high oil prices will cause everything to go up in price. That throws a monkey wrench in the true definition of inflation. The only answer I can give to that would be is if oil would have gradually kept rising over the years and kept pace with the true inflation data instead of being kept so low due to over abundance of it, then the huge spikes due to supply and demand constraints wouldn't have happened to this extreme.
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby billp » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 21:11:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s basically the government printing ( inflating ) the money.


This scares us Senior citizens. Along with possibly increasing property taxes and utility bills.

Us seniors hope for DEFLATIION.
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby emersonbiggins » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 21:17:28

The reason I don't trust inflation data: hedonics
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby EnergyHog » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 21:28:45

The inflation data is garbage plain and simple.
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby Armageddon » Tue 17 Apr 2007, 22:45:26

Has anyone ever thought about this. Things do not go up in price, it is just that it takes more dollars to buy things. The thing you are buying is still the same thing, it just takes more money to buy it because your dollar is worth less than it use to be due to the printing of money and causing your money to lose it's value. That is hard to descibe to the average Joe sixpack. All you get is a really dumb look on his face and a "huh" ?
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby mmasters » Wed 18 Apr 2007, 00:25:54

True that, the fed is the real cause of inflation but at 2-4% inflation a year typically in a technology increasing enviornment few notice the difference on a regular basis. The fed's "inflation fighting" is really mostly about oil and BS as they can't fight it much at all, damage control is the best they can do. It's when that typical 2-4% inflation turns to 10-20% people notice and a PR campaign/damage control is necessary. Also with the systemic problems triggered by Peak Oil or otherwise (the housing market for instance) the fed is printing more money in an effort to tactically fix the problems behind the scenes. Could think of it as sticking fingers in a leaking dam that will ultimately burst open. This is part of why some of us here forecast a global meltdown in the near future. When the pressure builds up enough and or the fed stops fixing things it will be an event greater than the crash of '29
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby halcyon » Wed 18 Apr 2007, 12:29:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Armageddon', 'I')nflation isn't the price of goods and services going up in price. The definition of inflation is the influx of money into the monetary system. Inflation is basically the government printing ( inflating ) the money.


That is the classic definition.

Modern definition if more broad and can (as an umbrella term) include concepts like demand inflation, price inflation, imported inflation, etc.

Therefor, regardless of what point of view one subscribes to, I think it is more clear to talk about monetary inflation, when one refers to inflation in the classic sense.

This avoids a lot of confusion.
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Re: Is Inflation Data Real or Oil is a major factor?

Postby FoxV » Wed 18 Apr 2007, 16:42:40

I was looking over my budget the other day, and I just love how my top three expense catagories (Food, Housing, Energy, for a family of 4) are not considered into the FEDs inflation policy

At least I live in Canada where inflation is somewhere between 3% and 5% (officially around 2%). But at 10% you guys to the South must be seeing inflation jumping at you all over the place.
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THE Oil and Inflation Thread (merged)

Postby LightCodes » Sat 19 May 2007, 13:31:17

Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie US government, Wall Street hide energy shortage and crisis with deceptive indicator
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the past few days, news headlines have trumpeted and repeated what is a non sequitur, and a physical and logical impossibility:
Overall Inflation Eases, Gas Prices Up (Associated Press)
Despite Gas Prices, Inflation Eases (Boston Globe)
These nonsensensical statements have already become the basis for economic, political and financial decision-making across the country, as well as internationally.

It is a lie. Here is why. Rising energy costs are inflation. You cannot have one without the other. Energy, and energy-related material, is the lifeblood of modern industrial life. When the cost of energy (including oil, natural gas, electricity, and the products made with petroleum, such as plastic) goes up, the cost of everything goes up. This is inflation. When energy is depleted, while the use and demand for energy continues to increase, the price of energy skyrockets. Inflation, again.

It is a fact that the world is in the early stages of Peak Oil and Gas---permanent shortage, and permanent depletion. The world oil peak occurred in November 2005, according to renowned scientists, geologists and industry experts. It is therefore a fact, with permanent shortage with high, rising and insatiable world energy demand, that rising inflation is not only a problem now, but also a permanent condition. Why are the authorities hiding this?

Core inflation hides the truth about energy crisis Simply defined, inflation is the increase in the average level of prices. However, there many different methods by which inflation is measured, and selectively reported by US government (primarily, the Bureau of Labor Statistics), the Federal Reserve Bank, Wall Street analysts, economists, the corporate media, and the rest of the US government.

There are, however, many different definitions of inflation. In recent years, the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Fed have selectively emphasized one version, core inflation. Core inflation is the statistic that excludes costs of energy and food.

Given the fact that 1) daily existence in modern life demands various forms of hydrocarbon energy, 2) a vast array of basic material is derived from hydrocarbons (such as plastic), and 3) food and food production depend on hydrocarbons (fertilizers, irrigation and pesticides, energy needed to run machinery, etc.), the exclusion of food and energy costs in the measure of inflation is, therefore, a lie.The selective use of core inflation is a cover-up that is routinely assisted by corporate media that, knowingly and unwittingly, promotes the illusion of a “growing economy with inflation under control, or non-existent”.

Meanwhile, what is the truth? Consider these:
Inflation looms as oil prices soar
Oil and gas project costs reach new highs
Gas costs $1,000 more annually than in 2001
The price of every form of energy (oil, gas, electricity) is going through the roof, as are other costs of everyday survival: health care, housing, and education.

In The Peak Oil crisis: alarms are sounding (May 17, 2007), Tom Whipple of the Falls Church News-Press writes: “Across the world, alarm bells are starting to clang. Above every gas station, a large sign is proclaiming that prices are on an unstoppable climb towards un-affordability. In Paris, the International Energy Agency has announced that the demand for oil is likely to exceed the supply later this year, unless, of course, OPEC steps up production. In the Middle East, OPEC spokesmen reiterate time after time that all is well, there is plenty of oil, and there is no need to increase production…. The Chinese just announced that their April oil imports were 23 percent higher than last April’s. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela---everywhere you look---there are unmistakable warnings of troubles to come.”

Ordinary people are being defrauded and lied to. It does not take a degree in economics or finance to see this. Even people who do not pay attention to the news intuitively know and feel the increasingly crippling effects of real inflation every day, at the gas pump and everywhere else. They are watching their money disappear. The crisis is palpable. Will the real inflation please stand up?

If core inflation is a deceptive statistic, where, then, does one find a more realistic measure? That is found in what is known to economists as headline inflation. Headline inflation includes the cost of energy and food. A few contrarian observers have pointed out that headline inflation tells much more of the truth.

Charles Bean, chief economist of the Bank of England said in August 2006 that the US Federal Reserve is wrong to focus on core measures of inflation that exclude energy prices. According to Bean, “it should focus on headline inflation, which is much higher. Including energy and food costs, US consumer price inflation is running at an annual rate of 4.1 percent, against 2.7 percent for core inflation”. He also pointed out correctly that energy prices were rising for the same reason the price of many manufactured goods are falling: the rise of China and other emerging market economies. Bean’s controversial statement came at the Fed’s annual Jackson Hole, Wyoming symposium. (Since Bean’s statement, energy prices have risen, which suggests that inflation is even higher than Bean’s 4.1 percent estimate).

In a piece titled “Inflation reporting errors continued”, Barry Ritholtz concludes that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been “consistently under-reporting inflation over the past 8 years.” Worse, the amount of the discrepancy has widened dramatically, with “the gap between core and headline is now greater than it was in the early 1980s, and---hard as it may be to imagine---we are only slightly off the spread of the terrible 1970s.” The BLS and the Federal Reserve, according to Ritholtz, have deviated from reality, even though others around the world see the disconnect… “The basket of goods and services that is measured is so massaged and hedonically adjusted”, that it no longer reflects reality.

In Ritholtz’ view: “The US consumer is confronted with rapidly rising costs for food, energy, health care, housing, education expenses. Indeed, even as both the everyday survival expenses (shelter, food, energy) and the larger family expenses (doctors, college, etc.) have exploded, there has been little correlation to what economists and the BLS have informed them. Despite the contradiction, there is little inflation in the official stats. It is as if economists are asking consumers, ‘Who are you gonna believe, us, or your lying eyes?’”
“If we are to judge inflation on a broader scale, we would undoubtedly come to the conclusion that, like the rest of the world, the US has an inflation problem.”

Ritholtz also notes that the highly respected Bill Gross of PIMCO (the largest manager of bonds in the United States) sees the same thing. Gross states: “A bigger threat to asset markets…comes not from slower economic growth in the short-term, but inflationary pressures towards the end of our secular timeframe. Since 1967, average differences in headline vs. core inflation have essentially been zero, despite distinct periods of cyclical variation. Now however, with globalization so dominant and Chinese/Asian appetites for oil, soybeans and iron ore amongst other commodities so voracious, it’s hard to envision an extended period of lower headline US increases.”

Here is a similar discussion:
Except for inflation, there's no inflation
In “Lies About Inflation”, Jack Douglas argues that the official measures of inflation, the Consumer Prices Index (CPI) does not include housing prices, which have soared in a Housing Bubble of recent years, and that education, retirement costs, medical and health care costs are grossly undercounted.

What are the US government and Wall Street working so hard to hide, and why are they hiding it? According to Douglas:
“The CPI does include the soaring costs of energy and food, so the Fed and the Big Media have cut them out by referring to the ‘Core CPI Inflation,’ which is a totally ad hoc number they get by cutting out energy and food costs. But have you ever met an American, or any human being, who could live without food or energy? The Fed pretends it is cutting out the heart and core of inflation by cutting out food and energy because these are ‘variable.’ But, of course, all prices are variable and this variability is the very reason one wants to keep measuring them: if they were not variable, it would be absurd to measure them more than one time.
“First, they do not want consumers to know that the American economy is in a desperate situation. If people knew the truth, they would save, not spend, and would insist the government stop running up immense debts to pay-off its rich Party members and fight unwinnable wars.

“If people saved, the Fed believes in Keynesian Ideology the economy would shrink, so they lie to get people to borrow and spend to pump-up the economy. The government and Fed poured out vast oceans of paper dollars over the past six years in a desperate Keynesian attempt to revive investment, income, consumption and growth to kick-start the economy after the Crash of the Nasdaq Bubble (created by earlier Fed floods of dollars to ‘pump-up the economy’) six years ago erased over 8 trillion dollars.
… “Second, they hide inflation to keep down the inflation-adjustment wage and retirement benefits to tens of millions of Americans at the lower end of the income scale, which saves big corporations and the government tens of billions of dollars a year.

“The Fed and the rest of the government failed to kick-start a real investment boom and growth. They produced an immense burden of debt, inflation, bubbles, and distortions of the whole global economy. Now all of that is unwinding faster and faster: we are spinning down faster and faster in a vortex of contraction that will most likely produce a ‘free fall’---a Great Crash.” [Note: I do not endorse all of the political views of this web site. However, Douglas’ view is on target. -LC]

An honest, accurate picture of post-Peak Oil economic reality, and the resulting public outcry, would cause a systemic crash, stock market collapses, and the end of “consumer confidence”. Without consumer spending and debt, the fragile economy would lose one of last remaining legs it is teetering on. There would be no more “pump” in “pump and dump”, and the Wall Street casino would close.

Off the cliff, into the dark: Governments, corporations and policy makers all over the world have been aware of Peak Oil and Gas for a long time, and have engaged in desperate actions to prepare for its many effects, including inflation. On February 28, 2007, the US General Accounting Office (GAO) published a report to Congress entitled Crude Oil: Uncertainty about Future Oil Supply Makes it Important to Develop a Peak and Decline in Oil Production. The authorities simply do not want the public to be privy to their machinations.

The global architects who manage a teetering global system that profits from criminality and mass murder---who have lied about 9/11, and lied in order to wage illegal wars of conquest all over the world---would not hesitate for one second to lie about inflation. In the words of Mike Ruppert, author of Crossing the Rubicon, there are too many “psychological and moral limitations that no political leaders and few human beings can see beyond” to count.

The lying will not end. Far important is the need to develop the ability identify the lies, and deal with the reality that they are being told to ignore. As Tom Whipple warns, there are immediate problems: “…Right now, on top of every American’s agenda should be the question of whether we are going to get through the summer without shortages and gas lines---opinions are mixed. “Earlier this week, Matthew Simmons of Twilight in the Desert fame, suggested that prospects for an uninterrupted summer of driving may be worse than government spokesmen have been letting on.

“Where does all this leave us? The short answer is, in an increasingly grim situation. When respected analysts say our gasoline situation is beyond the tipping point and that at least some of us are likely to be sitting in gas lines before Labor Day, we should heed the warning. Looking at the broader, worldwide picture, the situation is equally grim. When the normally staid International Energy Agency starts issuing a stream of dire warnings about shortages or much higher prices before the year is out, we should start thinking about a markedly different future.”
This future includes rising, and eventually permanent, inflation.

link
You will have to go to the original article to use the links. TPTB are trying to paint a rosey picture, but in reality everything is on the edge of collapse in a domino fasion style.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Wed 04 Mar 2009, 12:31:34, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merge thread.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 19 May 2007, 14:14:52

Inflation refers to overall increases in the cost of living. Housing prices, for most families comprise a much bigger part of their cost of living then do energy prices. Houseing prices are going down right now. That helps dampen down the overall cost of living and is temporarily keeping inflation down, even as energy costs rise.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Novus » Sat 19 May 2007, 19:40:00

I think this guy is over reacting. Even 4.1 inflation is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s inflation ran between 10% and 15%. I do think in the not too distant future inflation will turn ugly and then the writers of this article really will have something to cry about.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Baldwin » Sat 19 May 2007, 19:54:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I') think this guy is over reacting. Even 4.1 inflation is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. In the 1970s inflation ran between 10% and 15%. I do think in the not too distant future inflation will turn ugly and then the writers of this article really will have something to cry about.


Think of when the baby boomers retire. As Alan Greenspan said, we'll have enough money to keep social security afloat....but that money will have lessened purchasing power.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 19 May 2007, 23:14:23

Social security is currently indexed to inflation, so it is protected from inflation...the payments grow with inflation.

But if the politicians start messing around with changing the SS inflation proofing formula, then look out.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Armageddon » Sat 19 May 2007, 23:27:40

Inflation is not the rise in price of goods and services. Inflation is the influx of money into the monetary system ( printing of money ). Whenever the feds print money, this causes the current money to be worth less. So basically it takes more dollars to buy the same item. That's the true definition of inflation.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 19 May 2007, 23:38:09

Inflation is used in both senses. The annual increase in prices is considered the inflation rate, and social security is adjusted with COLA to inflation proof it.

A currency becomes "inflated" when it takes more zlotys or whatever to buy the same amount of goods.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Novus » Sun 20 May 2007, 13:12:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'S')ocial security is currently indexed to inflation, so it is protected from inflation...the payments grow with inflation.


But they only adjust for inflation once a year. Even with 10% inflation there is a noticable decline in the purchasing power of people on fixed income. Now for the Doomer Porn of 1000% inflation the yearly adjustments wouldn't do squat.
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby halcyon » Sun 20 May 2007, 13:18:53

Confusion of terminology.

Consumer price index (CPI) = "index that tracks the prices of a specified basket of consumer goods and services, providing a measure of inflation." In US, does not include all housing related costs (hence, CPI did NOT rise correspondingly when the housing bubble shot home prices up)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_price_index

Core Inflation = similar to CPI, but excludes food products and energy items (and their associated price changes)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_inflation

Headline inflation = includes all items in CPI, depending on country, may include additional items (like housing)

Price inflation = rise in prices and associated indexes (like CPI), which may be cause for example monetary inflation (excess liquidity aka 'printing money' in vernacular).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_inflation

Monetary inflation = "to differentiate the primary or direct inflation in the money supply from price inflation which they view as a result or symptom of the former. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_inflation

Inflation = all, one or none of the above. Depends purely on who is using the term and to what purpose.

There are other inflation sub-sets like exported inflation, etc.

To say that "monetary inflation" <=> "inflation" is not only misleading, but incorrect with the modern use of the terminology.

Only people living with pure keynesian/monetary economic distinctions and inflation definition of 60's will say that CPI!=inflation. Of course it is only _one_ measure of inflation and one is free to disagree with it. It is no more 100% picture of inflation just as monetary inflation isn't.

To say "printing money is inflation" is to confuse cause and effect.

Also, printing money is misleading to the beginner.

Fed's do not just/only print money. They set the fractional reserve rates for commercial banks and maintain the primary interest rate level, both of which allow private banks to loan out more money than what they actually have as deposits/assets, in effect creating more money in the market (figuratively 'printing more money').

Central banks (or similar institutions, like Fed) can actually print more bank notes and as such create more money, but it is not a very efficient mechanism to create money.

The situation in US for some time has been like this, afaik:

Core inflation < CPI < Headline inflation < Monetary inflation

So, depending on WHICH inflation measure you track, money has been losing it's value either very little year-to-year, or quite a lot year-to-year.

One can compare some of the stats for US at:

http://www.shadowstats.com/cgi-bin/sgs?
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby threadbear » Sun 20 May 2007, 13:36:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')nflation refers to overall increases in the cost of living. Housing prices, for most families comprise a much bigger part of their cost of living then do energy prices. Houseing prices are going down right now. That helps dampen down the overall cost of living and is temporarily keeping inflation down, even as energy costs rise.


Right. In the coastal cities, house prices have gone up at least 100% in the last five years, so a correction of 20% is HIGHLY deflationary. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Peak Oil and the Inflation Lie

Postby Plantagenet » Sun 20 May 2007, 14:35:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')In the coastal cities, house prices have gone up at least 100% in the last five years, so a correction of 20% is HIGHLY deflationary.


The government and in particular the SS administration calculate inflation and the resultant COLAs on a year-to-year basis. If they waited five years, SS recipients would fall far behind the inflation rate. 8)
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