Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Oil Alternatives Aren't

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
Post a reply

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby matt21811 » Sun 13 May 2007, 23:57:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', ' ')I doubt you'd see that Britain had scaled up its coal usage 10 to 20 years before Peak Wood...


Another embarassing quote....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t would lower the price of the energy you save only if the rate of energy savings outstrips both the rate of decline in energy extraction and the rate of increase in demand.

In which case you are talking about an economy that is not only not going to collapse, but is actually going to continue to expand.



Oh, I don't think you are going to make the argument that conservation and efficiency can both offset oil decline and provide for economic growth, are you?

Because, if it can, it will increase consumption. and if it cannot, it isn't a solution.


I think he just did make that arguement. You on the other hand have said nothing. Like a lot of you posts in this tread.

Joe0Bloggs "Increased consumption" is this "demand" you speak of. You have just said: "If it doesnt work, it wont work." Thanks for that.
User avatar
matt21811
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat 21 May 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:02:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', ' ') I'm suggesting that alternatives take a more prominent role so the number is even bigger. Posibly into the next century.


No, you suggested that CTL was a viable alternative to oil.

It is not.

It's another fossil fool's errand.

And if you think my points are not well researched, you are mistaken.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby Joe0Bloggs » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:11:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', ' ')I doubt you'd see that Britain had scaled up its coal usage 10 to 20 years before Peak Wood...


Another embarassing quote....


Care to elaborate?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t would lower the price of the energy you save only if the rate of energy savings outstrips both the rate of decline in energy extraction and the rate of increase in demand.

In which case you are talking about an economy that is not only not going to collapse, but is actually going to continue to expand.



Oh, I don't think you are going to make the argument that conservation and efficiency can both offset oil decline and provide for economic growth, are you?


It won't by itself--just as neither hydro, wind, solar, nuclear nor biofuels would do all these things by itself.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Because, if it can, it will increase consumption. and if it cannot, it isn't a solution.

"If it can, it will increase consumption." If consumption can continue to increase, that totally negates the PO doomer scenario. Of course it could lead to other doomer scenarios such as global warming. But we really should argue about one thing at a time. And you can argue that if consumption grows unchecked humanity will be doomed sometime or other. But then it wouldn't be PO that doomed us.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', 'I')t makes perfect sense that that rising oil price does not in itself mean that there are no alternatives to oil. After all, wood prices rose before coal replaced it, so I suppose that means that coal is an inferior fuel?

Another embarassing quote.

Maybe if you actually had an argument against what I am saying, you wouldn't have to resort to meaningless one-liners. BTW note the qualifier 'does not in itself'. Seeing as how PO->doom is such a well-reasoned conclusion, you should be presenting 99 other valid arguments to prove it, rather than trying to defend an argument that is indefensible.

Let's say PO->doom is true. That doesn't mean any old argument for 'proving' that PO->doom is true. Hence, refuting one argument for it doesn't mean refuting the whole idea. And I wouldn't think that just by refuting this flawed argument I've ensured a future of Mr. Fusion for everybody, either.
User avatar
Joe0Bloggs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:15:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', ' ')
I think he just did make that arguement. You on the other hand have said nothing. Like a lot of you posts in this tread.

Joe0Bloggs "Increased consumption" is this "demand" you speak of. You have just said: "If it doesnt work, it wont work." Thanks for that.


At least I make sense. You lost me here.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:19:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', 'M')aybe if you actually had an argument against what I am saying, you wouldn't have to resort to meaningless one-liners.


Oh, trust me, to many of us they are far from meaningless.

I think the over 9000 posts of mine have covered this at length ad naseum.

You want to rehash it, find another fool to debate.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby Joe0Bloggs » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:27:10

Simply put:
1. If prices indicate EROEI, then PO->doom is true.
2. PO->doom is true.
3. Then prices must indicate EROEI.

Heck no!

1. If prices indicate EROEI, then PO->doom is true.
2. Prices don't indicate EROEI (my argument)
3. Then PO does not ->doom

Er, nope! That would be denying the antecedent. I wouldn't dream of it!

Maybe now you and Aaron can release your emotional attachment to these broken arguments and present some real arguments.

Once again:
1. Coal replaced wood only after wood prices rose.
2. Coal is NOT inferior to wood.
3. Alternatives are not yet replacing oil as oil prices rise.
4. That in itself does NOT mean that alternatives are inferior to oil.
5. That does not mean that I am arguing that alternatives are SUPERIOR to oil.
6. All I'm saying is that you have not presented anything here that proves one way or the other.
7. If you want me to go through 9000 posts of yours before talking to you, is there any point in posting to this forum? Why not make this a non-interactive narrative website detailing your well-considered, irrefutable views that are the answer to life, the universe and everything?
User avatar
Joe0Bloggs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby Joe0Bloggs » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:30:22

I doubt you need to rehash 9000 posts to point out why rising oil prices IN AND OF ITSELF means that alternative energy sources are inferior, when there are explicit counterexamples in history.

Actually, since this is the very point that this thread is trying to prove/disprove, if it requires you to rehash 9000 posts, you'd better go ahead and do just that. Otherwise why not provide an index guide to your 9000 wise posts and lock this thread, since you seem unwilling to re-discuss the topic this thread is supposed to address.
User avatar
Joe0Bloggs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby matt21811 » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:36:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', ' ') I'm suggesting that alternatives take a more prominent role so the number is even bigger. Posibly into the next century.


No, you suggested that CTL was a viable alternative to oil.

It is not.

It's another fossil fool's errand.

And if you think my points are not well researched, you are mistaken.


CTL is indeed a viable alternative to oil. More so with alternates along with it.
You are yet to say why it is not.
I've seen the research you have posted on this site. Way to much of it lasts only minutes before it is refuted for me to take you as an authority figure an anything but national parks.
You will have to make an actual arguement.

BTW, the phrase "I'm suggesting" can be interpreted as "I suggest to you"
User avatar
matt21811
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat 21 May 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby Joe0Bloggs » Mon 14 May 2007, 00:37:34

Isn't it enough to prove that alternatives are inferior to oil... by proving alternatives are inferior to oil? You know, by directly calculating their EROEI? Why must you and Aaron resort to invalid economic arguments--and defend them to the point of being ridiculous?
User avatar
Joe0Bloggs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:02:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
Not the point. What energy source do you make the trash with?


I suppose all the same ones we usually use.


Exactly.

Fossil fuels.

You can hardly use the waste generated by fossil fuels as a "new" source of energy.


I never said anything about methane coming from a land fill being a new source of energy. Go play strawman arguements with someone else.
User avatar
PraiseDoom
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon 23 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:04:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', ' ')And now 2 years after Peak and I haven't even seen a decent shortage yet.


Some have just flat gone without so you can say that, you know?


If you can't afford crude oil, you will have the privilege of being among the first to experience the new direction of the world, powerdown, dieoff, and subsistence living.

BRING ON THE DOOM BABY!!!!!

I just wish it wouldn't take so long.
User avatar
PraiseDoom
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon 23 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:16:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', 'O')therwise why not provide an index guide to your 9000 wise posts and lock this thread, since you seem unwilling to re-discuss the topic this thread is supposed to address.


Oh, I think my very prominent threads related to this are easy enough to find.

And no, I am quite willing to discuss this topic, but I'm not willing to waste my time "casting my pearls before swine".
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:21:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', 'C')TL is indeed a viable alternative to oil. More so with alternates along with it.
You are yet to say why it is not.


Aaron did. It is not an alternative, it is desperation.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:25:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'I') never said anything about methane coming from a land fill being a new source of energy. Go play strawman arguements with someone else.


Oh?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'C')onsidering you can make oil from methane, and methane can be made from garbage, seems to me we can make solar panels from trash. Thats even better!


BTW, I never use strawmen to try an win a debate. The merits work just fine for me.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby Joe0Bloggs » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:29:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Oh, I think my very prominent threads related to this are easy enough to find.


Hmm, other people can quote sources and make coherent arguments, but as a privilege of having posted 9000+, you think you're not even required to link to a relevant post of yours.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')And no, I am quite willing to discuss this topic, but I'm not willing to waste my time "casting my pearls before swine".


Ah! An ad hominem! How intelligent! I think I'll pre-empt your tactics here and be the first to declare I've won this argument! LMAO! :roll:

Remember people: ad hominems in themselves do not make an argument invalid. It's ad hominems with no accompanying arguments that are invalid! :roll:
Last edited by Joe0Bloggs on Mon 14 May 2007, 01:35:48, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Joe0Bloggs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun 14 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 01:34:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Joe0Bloggs', ' ')Hmm, other people can quote sources and make coherent arguments, but as a privilege of having posted 9000+, you think you're not even required to link to a relevant post of yours.


Just look on any front page of any forum. Been there for years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')h! An ad hominem! How intelligent! I think I'll pre-empt your tactics here and be the first to declare I've won this argument! LMAO! :roll:


Ad hominem? How funny!

Saying that my words will most likely fall on deaf ears is an effort to win this debate?

I'm not trying to win any debate with you by attacking you, I am saying I don't wish to waste my time even debating you!

You go ahead and declare victory. What a hoot!
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby matt21811 » Mon 14 May 2007, 02:45:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', 'C')TL is indeed a viable alternative to oil. More so with alternates along with it.
You are yet to say why it is not.


Aaron did. It is not an alternative, it is desperation.


Aaron didn't say it wasn't viable. He said it would be expensive.

You are still a man without an arguement. You have half a dozen posts here and havent said a thing. It is pretty clear how you got to 9000 posts.
User avatar
matt21811
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat 21 May 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 14 May 2007, 02:55:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', ' ')Aaron didn't say it wasn't viable. He said it would be expensive.


He said :

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I')f you replace an energy source with a worse one... that's desperation.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are still a man without an arguement.


No, just tired of rehashing arguments laid to rest on here years ago.

Waste of time to try to debate someone who has his fingers in his ears.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby matt21811 » Mon 14 May 2007, 03:26:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('matt21811', ' ')Aaron didn't say it wasn't viable. He said it would be expensive.


He said :

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I')f you replace an energy source with a worse one... that's desperation.


Tanada pretty much schreded that one. Aaron seemed to concede. I guess you ight have been too busy working on your post count to read the whole thread. I'm sure i can find the same defeated arguement in your 9000 posts. The sad thing is that it will come out again and Tanada will have moved on to a community that will better appreciate his nuclear knowledge.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are still a man without an arguement.


No, just tired of rehashing arguments laid to rest on here years ago.

Waste of time to try to debate someone who has his fingers in his ears.

No, you just don't have an arguement.
User avatar
matt21811
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat 21 May 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Oil Alternatives Aren't

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Mon 14 May 2007, 10:13:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'I') never said anything about methane coming from a land fill being a new source of energy. Go play strawman arguements with someone else.


Oh?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'C')onsidering you can make oil from methane, and methane can be made from garbage, seems to me we can make solar panels from trash. Thats even better!


BTW, I never use strawmen to try an win a debate. The merits work just fine for me.


Then you shouldn't have pretended that I said methane from a garbage dump is somehow a "new" energy source. Dumbest thing I've ever heard......
User avatar
PraiseDoom
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon 23 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest