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Book: "Debunking 9 / 11 Debunking" by David R Griffin

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Book: "Debunking 9 / 11 Debunking" by David R Griffin

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 11 May 2007, 18:54:53

David Ray Griffin is a professor of philosophy of religion and theology, emeritus, at Claremont School of Theology.

He has had a highly respected career as a theological educator and philosopher and has been the author of some 20 or 25 books on theology and morality. He seems intent on closing the breach between science and religion. You can read about him here

He has just published his fourth book on the events of 911 called "Debunking 911 Debunking" which you can read about here:

long link

He has delivered some very serious blows to the credibility of the "911 Commission Report" and to defenders of the official story (such as magazine "Popular Mechanics"), particularly in his book "911 Omissions and Distortions".

Sometime after "Omissions and Distortions" kind of sank in, the 911 Commission members alongside the Mighty Wurlitzer of the media ground into gear churning out different versions from the original explanations of the complex web of events that took place on 911. In the present book, Griffin takes on these second-set explanations as well as the initial presentations. And, again, it is a very punishing exposition of logic! You need not read his previous books.

I can understand some people's reluctance to expose themselves to highly controversial (or seemingly tainted) material, but it appears to have gone beyond all that now. Griffin's latest book is meticulous in its ferreting out of the truth from lies, obfuscation
and fictions.

It's about the closest that anyone on Earth will ever come to actually seeing an angel do battle with Satan! Although David Ray Griffin is obviously a very grounded, practical-minded guy, I'm quite sure that he feels he is taking on a monstrous evil. And he appears to be winning the fight! I'm rooting for the angel.

Amazon delivers in a plain, brown package!

He has also been consulting on the film "Loose Change Final Cut" which is due out in September. This film's first two editions have been seen by millions of people worldwide and has been the most downloaded doc video in internet history. Television's Charlie Sheen will narrarate it. And the film's distribution will be handled by the billionaire owner of the Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban. Quite a long way from the first edition which was done on a laptop for $1,500!

Loose Change promises to be as like the other clenched fist - straight to demonic glass jaw itself- and will be the source that the most people will use for their information. But this book is more systematic and logically relentless than the film could possibly be.

This book review is included on PeakOil.com because many believe that the events of 911 and the subsequent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, The Military Commissions Act, and the destruction of respect for American ideals worldwide have as roots the fundamental, incipient struggle over increasingly (and fully expected) scarce petroleum resources and their distribution.

I'd have to say Griffin's "Debunking 911 Debunking" represents the definitive argument at this point.
Last edited by Carlhole on Sat 12 May 2007, 17:47:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Fri 11 May 2007, 20:05:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '.')..911 Debunking"

David Ray Griffin is a professor of philosophy of religion and theology, emeritus, at Claremont School of Theology.

He has had a highly respected career as a theological educator and philosopher and has been the author of some 20 or 25 books on theology and morality. He seems intent on closing the breach between science and religion. You can read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ray_Griffin.



I don't get it. A religious nut of one sort or another ( believing in such a thing as religion..how SILLY can people get ) decides to refute demolition experts and you appear to imply he wins? An interesting theory, after he retired from being a religious nut, did he acquire a PhD in explosives or some such? I didn't see that qualification in his Wikipedia resume...Wikipedia admittedly not being the final word on much of anything..but its generally right...sometimes.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 11 May 2007, 20:47:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't get it.


He compiles and analyses times, logistics, facts and things like that which were produced by others and documented in a formal way. He quotes a ton of references on every page.

Griffin appears to have a pretty big mind and argues with a lot of skill. Touche.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Fri 11 May 2007, 20:53:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't get it.


He compiles and analyses times, logistics, facts and things like that which were produced by others and documented in a formal way. He quotes a ton of references on every page.

Griffin appears to have a pretty big mind and argues with a lot of skill. Touche.


Everything outside of mathematics can be argued or disproved....so debating what happened on 9-11, while amusing, requires more than the training in strength of materials, demolition or applied physcis a religious studies teacher might get during the normal course of his professional training.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 11 May 2007, 21:20:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'E')verything outside of mathematics can be argued or disproved....


You know what? This is a subject of great complexity and importance. Griffin has not the intellect to deliberately fudge the truth of what his eyes and brain tell him to be true, false or highly probable. The first thing to understand about David Ray Griffin is is long respectable but courageous and energetic career in theology.

The events beginning with 911 deserve and are due a thorough scrutiny by the likes of Mr. Spock, no doubt. But since Spock is only mythical, Dr. Griffin will have to do. Read the book.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 11 May 2007, 22:19:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't get it.


He compiles and analyses times, logistics, facts and things like that which were produced by others and documented in a formal way. He quotes a ton of references on every page.

Griffin appears to have a pretty big mind and argues with a lot of skill. Touche.


Everything outside of mathematics can be argued or disproved....so debating what happened on 9-11, while amusing, requires more than the training in strength of materials, demolition or applied physcis a religious studies teacher might get during the normal course of his professional training.


Everything everything??? 8) Oh I see, PO must be a "math" thing.
I thoroughly enjoy the thought that one must possess a piece of paper certifying them capable of debate :lol:

Good stuff, where do they get these guys?
If enough of them come here and start praising PO but downing 911 truth I am going to seriously reconsider my membership in the church of PO :roll:
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 11 May 2007, 22:41:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'I')f enough of them come here and start praising PO but downing 911 truth I am going to seriously reconsider my membership in the church of PO :roll:


If an argument is strong enough, it circulates like a good joke. Then, people want to know the facts... Well, DRG has been debating theses all his life and nothing in his writings indicate "madman". He is somewhat intellectually and spiritually adventurous in that he was attracted to Eastern religion early on. But, he's had so much practice at social and intellectual sparring that he now appears to defeat his opponents by a relentless reminding-of-everyone of a huge set of irregularities, coincidences in intricate but broad detail.

Even if the man turned out to be incorrect, it will have been efforts like his who are able to examine all the remaining classified evidence that could finally produce a description that could be earnestly verified and believed.

It's as if someone with the morality and mentality of Columbo had been set loose on the Illuminati. It's just such a blinking red good analysis that I wholeheartedly recommend it to everybody.

I think the book should be read.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 11 May 2007, 22:54:46

Indeed and thus I am looking forward to the Final Cut.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Fri 11 May 2007, 23:01:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', 'E')verything outside of mathematics can be argued or disproved....


You know what? This is a subject of great complexity and importance.


Well, I agree with this statement, and I would also agree that an expert in religion might want to get some training in an appropriate field related to demolition, applied physics or whatever is needed prior to pretending to know as much as the experts on the other side of the equation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
Griffin has not the intellect to deliberately fudge the truth of what his eyes and brain tell him to be true, false or highly probable. The first thing to understand about David Ray Griffin is is long respectable but courageous and energetic career in theology.


And if that counted for much in a pretty basic arguement over a demolition job, maybe his opinion would mean something.

While enthusiasm counts in this world, it sure isn't a replacement for the training and experience of a professional in a given field.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
The events beginning with 911 deserve and are due a thorough scrutiny by the likes of Mr. Spock, no doubt. But since Spock is only mythical, Dr. Griffin will have to do. Read the book.


If I thought someone with a degree in religion was in a position to contradict the demolition/aeronautical/civil/structural experts assembled by PM to look into the issue, I would.

Is there perhaps a real expert somewhere who actually has the background to refute the "official" 9-11 story rather than this guy? And did he write a book? And would you perhaps be able to point me at THAT title?
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Fri 11 May 2007, 23:10:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')
Oh I see, PO must be a "math" thing.


I certainly didn't say that, but its not unreasonable. You start out with 100 of a thing, and you start subtracting 1 of them at a time until there is none left. No arguement required, only subtraction.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')
I thoroughly enjoy the thought that one must possess a piece of paper certifying them capable of debate :lol:



I didn't say this either. Anyone may debate anything, but when you stack a PhD structural engineer against the local Presbyterian preacher in a structural demolition debate, I'm guessing one has a high probability of knowing whats actually going on and the other has lots of "enthusiasm".

While an amusing matchup, I'm not sure characterizing it as a "debate" is reasonable.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 11 May 2007, 23:55:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', '.')..Is there perhaps a real expert somewhere who actually has the background to refute the "official" 9-11 story rather than this guy? And did he write a book? And would you perhaps be able to point me at THAT title?


A fact is a fact is a fact. These facts were mostly established in business-as-usual records and documentation on the day of 911. Many more come through testimonies and public comments in the days and weeks immediately after 911. Many were made in subsequent years. Lots of people, many experts, a great deal of interest by everyone is sorted through and analyzed by Dr. Griffin - with the purpose to present solid ground for anyone looking into the serious possibility of government complicity on 911.

This book makes a solid case that will also have to be surmounted somehow by those arguing against it. Griffin uses as many reliable sources of fact as possible in arriving at conclusions. So, really you have to read his book to be able to talk about it with any credibility. To be sure, lots of people will.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Sat 12 May 2007, 00:48:31

I am quite sure that very few of the people criticising this book will take the trouble to actually read it.

Funny how some people consider themselves qualified to offer opinions on books they have not read. Apparently, David Ray Griffin cannot offer an opinion about the failings of the NIST report because he is not a structural engineer, and yet some people believe they can offer an opinion on his book, in spite of not even reading it.

And, come to think it, those people who post on PO forums who aren't practising petroleum geologists and yet think they know more than the folks at CERA do.. what's that all about?

Praisedoom, how about you actually read the book and post your critique, rather than dismissing it a priori?
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby threadbear » Sat 12 May 2007, 01:19:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PraiseDoom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')
Oh I see, PO must be a "math" thing.


I certainly didn't say that, but its not unreasonable. You start out with 100 of a thing, and you start subtracting 1 of them at a time until there is none left. No arguement required, only subtraction.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')
I thoroughly enjoy the thought that one must possess a piece of paper certifying them capable of debate :lol:



I didn't say this either. Anyone may debate anything, but when you stack a PhD structural engineer against the local Presbyterian preacher in a structural demolition debate, I'm guessing one has a high probability of knowing whats actually going on and the other has lots of "enthusiasm".

While an amusing matchup, I'm not sure characterizing it as a "debate" is reasonable.


How remarkably transparent you debunkers are. We're just going to have to go through all of the tactics, obfuscations, and mental games you use, point by point, for the viewing audience, as a sort of primer on propaganda 101.

Tactic #1--The most popular--Smear the opponent (Griffin, in this case) and ignore the substance of his remarks. Attempt to drown out the sincere with noisy ridicule.

And btw, Sh**head...I'll take the remarks of a sincere Presbyterian theologian over a bought and paid for structural engineer, any day.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby coyote » Sat 12 May 2007, 03:30:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'b')ig freakin deal. another alphachimp ready for shaving.

:lol:

pstarr, you still got it man.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Sat 12 May 2007, 09:32:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'P')raisedoom holds himself to be a rational sceptic here to slay the cassandras. big freakin deal. another alphachimp ready for shaving.


Why are you being so mean? Just because I don't swallow the 9-11 conspiracy theory line hook line and sinker its time to call me names?
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Sat 12 May 2007, 09:35:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')
And btw, Sh**head...I'll take the remarks of a sincere Presbyterian theologian over a bought and paid for structural engineer, any day.


Its a free country.....and I disagree.

We all buy into our favorite brand of dogma...nothing wrong with that.
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby billg » Sat 12 May 2007, 10:42:21

Here is a list of 25 "experts" in the mathematical, science, and engineering fields who question the official account of 911. Scroll down a bit.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html#Griscom
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Re: "Debunking..."

Unread postby PraiseDoom » Sat 12 May 2007, 10:56:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('billg', 'H')ere is a list of 25 "experts" in the mathematical, science, and engineering fields who question the official account of 911. Scroll down a bit.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html#Griscom


Did you read your own list? Let the counts begin!

religion/feminine religion/theology 13
comp sci 1
philosophy 1
liberal arts 1

You'll forgive me for getting tired after reading down through the bio's of the first 16 and not finding much in the way of science, engineering, or anything to do with demolition or whatever else might be pertinent to the conversion of religious experts versus structural engineers and such.

feminine religion was my favorite listed, and undoubtedly critical to understanding what happens when 15 tons of kerosene is ignited while slamming into a building at 500 mph.

I suppose I'll check out more later in the hopes of SOMEBODY who might know more than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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