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We don't need animal products.

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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Baldwin » Sat 05 May 2007, 17:03:57

I am a card carrying member of PETA: People who Eat Tasty Animals.

I am damn proud of it. It is one thing to be vegetarian on your own, but this militant brand of waving propoganda in my face is annoying.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby billg » Sat 05 May 2007, 17:05:56

The most sustainable meat diet consists of 100% human meat, starting with Republicans and then Democrats.

Bill the vegan.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Narz » Sat 05 May 2007, 17:14:54

Hi happycrop. I was vegan (mostly raw vegan) myself for about three years. These days I eat raw goat's cheese & raw eggs (from a dude down the street).

What are your thoughts on vitamin B12?

I personally could do just fine without animal products myself, my girlfriend craves them after a month or two of being vegan though. I think one must respect what one's body is calling for.

I can't guarentee I'll be vegetarian for life. Animal husbandry is not always unsustainable (I'd like to have chickens someday - for eggs, not meat).

I respect your agenda and I'm sure you're a caring person. That said, I hope you are able to respect others regardless of whether they choose to eat meat or not, otherwise you limit your social circle significantly.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby happycrop » Sat 05 May 2007, 17:43:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'H')i happycrop. I was vegan (mostly raw vegan) myself for about three years. These days I eat raw goat's cheese & raw eggs (from a dude down the street).

What are your thoughts on vitamin B12?

I personally could do just fine without animal products myself, my girlfriend craves them after a month or two of being vegan though. I think one must respect what one's body is calling for.

I can't guarentee I'll be vegetarian for life. Animal husbandry is not always unsustainable (I'd like to have chickens someday - for eggs, not meat).

I respect your agenda and I'm sure you're a caring person. That said, I hope you are able to respect others regardless of whether they choose to eat meat or not, otherwise you limit your social circle significantly.

Thank you very much for the model nice, polite and respectful post, and for restoring my faith Internet community. :) A private message is coming your way shortly, as now explained in the OP. I just must get some shut-eye first, I'm afraid. It's been an exasperating day all round. [smilie=sad3.gif]
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 05 May 2007, 19:37:33

*sigh*

Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that humans have been omnivorous since before even Homo habilis (1.5 ~ 2.3 million years ago). And the most conservative estimates indicate that widespread domestication of fire, including it's use for cooking, had been accomplished no later than 125,000 years ago (and there is some evidence that it may have been considerably earlier), sufficient time for genetic adaptation to cooking to have occurred by now.

A purely vegan diet that is healthy as a life-long way of eating is exceedingly difficult to devise, given the complex interactions of the myriad nutrients we need for optimum health. If you're really interested in a better understanding of the issues involved, rather than simple dogmatic idealism, you might wish to check out the following very in-depth, well-documented discussion of these issues:

[url=http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml]Paleolithic Diet vs. Vegetarianism:
What was humanity's original, natural diet?[/url]
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 05 May 2007, 21:04:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'T')William - nice post.


I particularly find interesting the information that indicates a correlation between increasing flesh consumption amongst our primitive ancestors and both increasing average height and increasing cranial capacity (brain size), and that subsequently since the advent of agriculture (and thus a decrease in the percentage of animal protein in the diet), there has been an 11% decrease in cranial capacity as well as a decrease in average height (somewhat reversed in recent times due to a renewed uptic in flesh consumption).
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Narz » Sat 05 May 2007, 21:54:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'W')here's Matt Savignon and his well developed posterior chain?

I'll bet he could take this guy, who is on a goat cheese and raw egg diet.

Take me where exactly? :evil:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '*')sigh*

Paleoanthropological evidence indicates that humans have been omnivorous since before even Homo habilis (1.5 ~ 2.3 million years ago). And the most conservative estimates indicate that widespread domestication of fire, including it's use for cooking, had been accomplished no later than 125,000 years ago (and there is some evidence that it may have been considerably earlier), sufficient time for genetic adaptation to cooking to have occurred by now.

125,000 years is a drop in the bucket evolutionarily speaking. That said, I agree we've adapted to some cooking but certainly not a diet that is almost entirely cooked and processed. Our ansectors may have cooked some (all tribes indeed cook some) but they didn't cook everything.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'A') purely vegan diet that is healthy as a life-long way of eating is exceedingly difficult to devise, given the complex interactions of the myriad nutrients we need for optimum health. If you're really interested in a better understanding of the issues involved, rather than simple dogmatic idealism, you might wish to check out the following very in-depth, well-documented discussion of these issues:

[url=http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml]Paleolithic Diet vs. Vegetarianism:
What was humanity's original, natural diet?[/url]

beyondveg is hardly a place to find unbiased information. Regardless of statistics, propaganda or paleolithic theories some people thirve on a animal free diet, there's no doubt about it.

Myself, I prefer some animal products but if I had to do without them I'd be fine. On some of the raw food forums I post it there are plenty of posters who claim to have wasted away to nothing upon trying veganism. I personally have not had that experience. Nor have evidently, many others (try "vegan bodybuilder" on google image for example, the beyondvegers would have you believe they are all either flukes of nature or lying, I'm not so sure).

happycrop, looking forward to your reply and/or PM.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 May 2007, 22:13:18

Wasn't there just a big news story about a vegan couple who starved their own baby by trying to raise it on an exclusively vegan diet?
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 May 2007, 22:19:35

Yes. Here it is.

Six week old vegan baby starves to death because Vegan parents only gave it vegan fooods.

http://digg.com/health/Vegan_Parents_St ... Juice_Diet

If the life expectancy of vegans is so great, why did this vegan baby starve to death at six weeks?
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 05 May 2007, 23:33:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'b')eyondveg is hardly a place to find unbiased information.


And you've read and checked references on how much of that site, exactly?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')yself, I prefer some animal products but if I had to do without them I'd be fine. On some of the raw food forums I post it there are plenty of posters who claim to have wasted away to nothing upon trying veganism. I personally have not had that experience. Nor have evidently, many others (try "vegan bodybuilder" on google image for example, the beyondvegers would have you believe they are all either flukes of nature or lying, I'm not so sure).


A few atypical exceptions do not negate the fact that the vast majority of those who embrace pure veganism for an extended period of time experience steadily declining health.

For the sake of brevity, I will not post the lengthy refutations here, but I will instead simply state a number of commonly held vegan tenets that have been decidely shown to not be supported by clinical and/or scientific evidence:

1) Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth's natural resources.

2) Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

3) The body can convert omega-6 fatty acids into omega-3 fatty acids as it needs.

4) The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from plant foods.

5) Meat-eaters have higher rates of heart and kidney disease, cancer, obesity and osteoporosis than vegetarians.

6) Saturated fats cause heart disease and cancer, and low-fat, low-cholesterol diets are healthier for people.

7) Vegetarians live longer and have more energy and endurance than meat-eaters.

8) The "cave man" diet was low-fat and/or vegetarian.

9) Meat and saturated fat consumption have increased in the 20th century, with a corresponding increase in heart disease and cancer.

10) Soy products are adequate substitutes for meat and dairy products.

11) The human body is not designed for meat consumption.

12) Eating animal flesh causes violent, aggressive behaviour in humans.

13) Animal products contain numerous, harmful toxins.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Narz » Sun 06 May 2007, 17:18:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'b')eyondveg is hardly a place to find unbiased information.


And you've read and checked references on how much of that site, exactly?

My life refutes much of the crap on that site. It basically says you cannot be healthy as a vegetarian and if you become one your health will go to sh!t. That has not been my experience.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '
')A few atypical exceptions do not negate the fact that the vast majority of those who embrace pure veganism for an extended period of time experience steadily declining health.

Show me a study that shows that. Any study. Not some Weston Price or Sally Felton quote but an actual study. All the ones I've seen show that "vegans are slim but healthy" (I think that was the name of one). But as you're the one making the claim I'll let you do the legwork.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', 'F')or the sake of brevity, I will not post the lengthy refutations here, but I will instead simply state a number of commonly held vegan tenets that have been decidely shown to not be supported by clinical and/or scientific evidence:

The fact that fanatical vegans exist doesn't mean many of the equally meat-eater myths are fact.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '1')) Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth's natural resources.
Raising meat certainly uses more resources than rasing vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '2')) Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.
It can be obtained from a vegetarian capsul.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '3')) The body can convert omega-6 fatty acids into omega-3 fatty acids as it needs.
Never heard that one before.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '4')) The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from plant foods.
According to the USDA it can. I've never heard that one shown false either.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '5')) Meat-eaters have higher rates of heart and kidney disease, cancer, obesity and osteoporosis than vegetarians.
Not going to do the research for you but I'd be willing to be vegans have far lower levels of all of the above than heavy meat eaters though.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '6')) Saturated fats cause heart disease and cancer, and low-fat, low-cholesterol diets are healthier for people.
Depends on the type of saturated fat. Coconut oil in moderation isn't too bad. Eating tons of red meat (especially grain fed) is. Wild meats have much higher levels of DHA and lower levels of saturated fat. Our ancestors may have none been eating rice cakes and low-fat yougurt (nor do I ;)) but they weren't eating factory farmed cattle either.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '7')) Vegetarians live longer and have more energy and endurance than meat-eaters.
Pretty much. Yeah. There was some study involving vegetarians and stationary bikes that shower superior endurance. Too time intensive to look it up, count that as a victory if you like.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '8')) The "cave man" diet was low-fat and/or vegetarian.
Only time I heard that one was from a nutso fruitarian dude.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '9')) Meat and saturated fat consumption have increased in the 20th century, with a corresponding increase in heart disease and cancer.
That's quite evidently true.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '1')0) Soy products are adequate substitutes for meat and dairy products.
I don't eat soy or meat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '1')1) The human body is not designed for meat consumption.
The human body is designed to handle just about anything.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '1')2) Eating animal flesh causes violent, aggressive behaviour in humans.
I don't believe that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '1')3) Animal products contain numerous, harmful toxins.
Definitely. Especially when grilled, highly carcinogenic. Heard some study on the news the other day that women who ate bacon on the regular have twice the risk of breast cancer. These types of studies are hardly a surprise. People who eat bacon every day for breakfast are mostly full aware that they're decreasing their health & lifespan, they just see it as a trade off.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby eric_b » Sun 06 May 2007, 18:44:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'T')William - nice post.


I particularly find interesting the information that indicates a correlation between increasing flesh consumption amongst our primitive ancestors and both increasing average height and increasing cranial capacity (brain size), and that subsequently since the advent of agriculture (and thus a decrease in the percentage of animal protein in the diet), there has been an 11% decrease in cranial capacity as well as a decrease in average height (somewhat reversed in recent times due to a renewed uptic in flesh consumption).


I seem to recall reading (somewhere) that consumption of seafoods high in EFA's (DHA, omega-3 etc.) may have helped contribute to larger human brains at some point in the distant past. Now that we've nearly extincted many benthic creatures... well at least there's still hemp seed oil.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 06 May 2007, 19:04:59

The poor growth of agriculturalists versus hunter-gatherers is probably due to less optimum nutrition in the more limited diet of agriculturalists. During some periods of agriculture, the people would eat only a very limited number of foods, whereas hunter-gatherers eat virtually everything edible they happen across, from roots, nuts, tubers, to insects, as well as meat. Most HG diets are largely plant material, as it is easier to collect than meat in general, though meat has always been valued by HG people because of its dense nutrition (and taste).


Eating meat, especially cooked meat, enabled the early hominids to devote more of their skull capacity to brain space rather than attachment for large chewing muscles (compare a gorilla skull to a human skull), and eating meat enabled them to spend less time gathering food, and more time developing other skills. Hunting also may have enabled the development of different motor skills and communication skills which in turn improved hunting, this all built upon itself to develop the speaking, tool-using human we know and love.


Even now, our agriculturally-based diet is less optimum than what would be enjoyed by hunter-gatherers. Though we generally have plenty of calories, the nutrition in our food may be poor, due to the few ingredients used (mainly corn and other grain products, sugar, and fat). No surprise we're turning into a fat, sickly people.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby 0mar » Mon 07 May 2007, 00:12:32

who the fuck cares?

you're going to all die one day, it doesn't matter what the fuck you do. At all. All of this is just appeasing the reaper for a few extra years, which he won't give anyways.

Eat meat, enjoy it. If you don't like meat, that's fine, just don't tell me that I'm killing myself. We are all killing ourselves just by breathing.

Now if you'll excuse me, I got a whole buffalo to devour.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby TWilliam » Mon 07 May 2007, 01:06:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'M')y life refutes much of the crap on that site.

Anecdotal. Refutes nothing...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot some Weston Price or Sally Felton quote but an actual study... ... But as you're the one making the claim I'll let you do the legwork.

Why? They have amassed more than enough relevant data to demonstrate that a healthy omnivorous diet (meaning non-factory farmed foods), with all other factors being equal, is superior for human health and longevity than a strictly vegan one. Why should I have to repeat the journey they've already made? Just because you're unwilling to do so? If you won't accept it from them, why would I expect you to accept it from me?

(They have repeatedly asserted that a limited-time vegetarian diet is often a very good means of treating numerous conditions, just not something to be embraced permanently.)

As for the rest, I'll let the original author take care of that:

The Myths of Vegetarianism
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Newsseeker » Mon 07 May 2007, 09:06:16

Most vegetarian and vegan diets are deficient in VB12 so if you attempt it make sure to take this in as well.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Ayoob » Mon 07 May 2007, 11:23:06

Ralph's has london broil on sale today for $1.99 a pound. I'm going to buy 20 pounds and make beef jerkey with it and stack it up in bags. Mmmm good.
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Re: We don't need animal products.

Unread postby Narz » Mon 07 May 2007, 13:27:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')es. Here it is.

Six week old vegan baby starves to death because Vegan parents only gave it vegan fooods.

http://digg.com/health/Vegan_Parents_St ... Juice_Diet

If the life expectancy of vegans is so great, why did this vegan baby starve to death at six weeks?

Because babies are meant to be breastfed.

If the parents fed the baby only pureed chicken McNuggets it would have died also. It's idiotic to blame veganism because these nutty parents didn't breastfeed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'H')ere's a better question ---

If vegans are so concerned with health and natural food, why the hell was a 6 week old baby NOT being breast fed.

Breast is best, and that works on more than one level.

Exactly.
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