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Clueless in America

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Clueless in America

Unread postby joewp » Thu 03 May 2007, 12:23:52

My fellow Americans are at it once again, blaming everybody but themselves for rising gas prices:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The NY Daily News', '
')It found 72% of motorists expect to be paying more than $3.50 a gallon in the next few months, 83% suspect illegal price gouging - and the huge majority want it stopped.

"Americans are fed up with skyrocketing gasoline prices and they want action," said Pam Solo, president of the Civil Society Institute, which questioned more than 1,000 motorists.
-----
"These survey findings should send a real jolt through the corridors of the White House and the halls of Congress," Solo said.

Researchers found drivers sick of dependence on Middle Eastern oil, government reluctance to increase fuel efficiency requirements and oil companies' empty promises about green energy.


The press release from Civil Society Institute is here and the complete survey is here(pdf). Something interesting from the complete survey, vis a vis demand destruction:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')A fair number of Americans say they will be making changes in their spending or leisure
travel if gasoline hits $3.50 a gallon. More than half (51%) say they will definitely or
probably cut back on other spending and 46% say they will cut back on summer or end of
year holiday travel if this happens. Nearly three in 10 (29%) say they would definitely or
probably buy a hybrid or fuel-efficient car in response to $3.50 gasoline


There goes the consumer's resilience! Sell your retail stocks now, before the rush.
Joe P. joeparente.com
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby NEOPO » Thu 03 May 2007, 12:27:17

Good post.
My response "Who? us?" :cry:
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Valdemar » Thu 03 May 2007, 12:36:29

It's those damn A-rabs you hear about so much. They cause the ills of the whole world, dontchaknow?

I love how the nation that voted in an administration that never ceases to cut back on taxing the rich to screw the poor over, is now somehow amazed that Big Oil is making money off the suckers that are the US public.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Bas » Thu 03 May 2007, 12:45:20

America is still a step ahead of Europe where the high gasoline prices are still not even a topic in the media.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby What2DO » Thu 03 May 2007, 13:27:26

Prices are already $3.50 to $4.00 dollars in california and consumers are still spending like crazy, I dont think things will change here until we see $4.50 to $5.00 dollars. Sure you will hear some stories of people pawning their wedding rings and tv's or what not to buy gas but those people should'nt have a car anyways. They can barley afford one when prices are low.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Sheb » Thu 03 May 2007, 14:17:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Valdemar', 'I') love how the nation that voted in an administration that never ceases to cut back on taxing the rich to screw the poor over, is now somehow amazed that Big Oil is making money off the suckers that are the US public.


Huh? Didn't you know...the Clinton administration's been out of office for over six years now. ;)

Seriously, though, blaming any single administration--Clinton *or* Bush, or Reagan for that matter, is a bit simplistic don't you think? Not to be harsh, but it sounds a bit like the chorus being sung in the article quoted at the beginning of this thread. It's always someone elses fault we are in the straits we are in. Preferably someone that fits within our political/religous/world view.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Kingcoal » Thu 03 May 2007, 14:31:43

One of my favorite movies, Three Days of the Condor (1975):
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')iggins: It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. Maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?
Joe Turner: Ask them?
Higgins: Not now - then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!

Joe Turner: Boy, what is it with you people? You think not getting caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?

[offering Turner a gun] Joubert: For that day.

Higgins: I'm sorry.
Joe Turner: You're sorry? You're sorry. Oh, I get it. I get it. You expect me to draw fire, like one of those penny arcade bears that parades back and forth waiting for somebody, somebody very good just to take another shot, and you're just gonna hang around and pick him up just before he does it? Or just after?
Higgins: I'll try and find out what's going on; I'm gonna cross-check all those names...
Joe Turner: Nice talking to you, Higgins. Have a nice day.

Higgins: It'd have to be somebody in the community.
Joe Turner: Community.
Higgins: Intelligence field.
Joe Turner: Community! Jesus, you guys are kind to yourselves. Community.

Higgins: It didn't have to end this way.
Joe Turner: Of course it did.
"That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Sheb » Thu 03 May 2007, 14:32:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('What2DO', 'S')ure you will hear some stories of people pawning their wedding rings and tv's or what not to buy gas but those people should'nt have a car anyways. They can barley afford one when prices are low.


Seriously, have you seen such stories? That would make me think that they were expecting prices to go back down again to "normal", so they can get their things back out of hock. Either that, or maybe they are so far into the hand-to-mouth, just-in-time existence that the Pawn shop is their only option.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Eli » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:31:16

You cannot blame the American people for not knowing the underling problems with gasoline and PO in general.


Corporate America controls this nation and really does not want this story to ever be told in accurate easily understandable way. There are a few good stories about PO and gasoline but mostly they come from opinion pieces and op eds.


More than half the time Simmons is on TV that counter balance him with the worst cornucopian they can find.

Hell, if I owned Bloomberg or ran CNBC I wouldn't want this story getting out. It is in the best interest of corporate America to keep the game going as long as they can.

We are over the cliff as far as I am concerned, I say let the American people stay ignorant and happy.

Without a doubt they will learn all too soon how bad the situation really is, the vanishing of their so called wealth and the hunger in their bellies will not let them miss it.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby aflurry » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:47:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sheb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Valdemar', 'I') love how the nation that voted in an administration that never ceases to cut back on taxing the rich to screw the poor over, is now somehow amazed that Big Oil is making money off the suckers that are the US public.
Huh? Didn't you know...the Clinton administration's been out of office for over six years now. ;) Seriously, though, blaming any single administration--Clinton *or* Bush, or Reagan for that matter, is a bit simplistic don't you think? Not to be harsh, but it sounds a bit like the chorus being sung in the article quoted at the beginning of this thread. It's always someone elses fault we are in the straits we are in. Preferably someone that fits within our political/religous/world view.

I agree you can't blame an administration for prices. But Valdemar was just pointing out the ironic correlation, not causation. It is just to say that it is no surprise we get the politics we ask for.

To me, the higher the prices, the better, and the sooner they rise, the better. That is the ONLY way to cut usage. And I don't think it matters how or why they rise... torrorist explodes a pipeline, taxation, better yet something very obviously permanent. If people think it is temporary they will cut down on necessities, but if they think it is permanent, they will have to figure out a way to use less gas.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Sheb » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:49:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'Y')ou cannot blame the American people for not knowing the underling problems with gasoline and PO in general. Corporate America controls this nation and really does not want this story to ever be told in accurate easily understandable way. There are a few good stories about PO and gasoline but mostly they come from opinion pieces and op eds.

Sure you can! Do you think that people are not the some helpless wide-eyed little lamb-people? You can blame them, and I do. But as much as there is blame to asign, I hold myself responsible for my own predicament.

It is up to each of us to know the facts available to us. "Corporate America" is a construct used conveniently placing the blame. However, if on an individual level, people refuse to hear, see, or notice danger signs around them, because that is inconvenient to them and their lifestyle, than how can they expect someone to *make them* see? If you cannot, as a free person, do something for yourself, then how do you expect some organization (e.g. "The Government) to do it for you?

Most people, throughout history, have taken the path of least *immediate* resistant, the actions most expedient to them at that time. Most people throughout history have refused to believe anything that is, in the immediat sense to them, inconvient. Humanity has, in general, wanted, no *expected* to be given survival, comfort, happiness, and self-fulfillment without the inconvenience of doing those things that would guarantee their own survival in the long run. And when things fall apart, as they are doing now? Then most people, again, choose the most immediate action...the action that absolves them individually of responsibility and obligated action: They blame some faceless authority, be it Religion, the Government, or Corporate America--all various faces of "The Man".

And, when things went from bad to worse in the forseeable events throughout history, most people suffered and many died. If you find yourself up Poo River without fuel for your outboard...don't blame The Man for your actions. It won't do you a drop of good.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby idomar » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:54:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'W')ithout a doubt they will learn all too soon how bad the situation really is, the vanishing of their so called wealth and the hunger in their bellies will not let them miss it.

The British government have a 4 meals from anarchy scenario, which basically states that a society is only 4 missed meals from anarchy. The Times 2004

I think that the British public are just as blissfully unaware as anyone else that their way of life will come crashing around their ears. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the choice between driving and eating hits.

The Govt has 'contingency plans' and I would love to know what the contingency plans are, the British govt are notoriously secretive about such matters, but i seem to remember that posse comitatus in the US has been revoked and they have that nice new shiny microwave cooker crowd dispersal thingy. Bring along your own roadkill to the BBQ, free energy at least
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Sheb » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:55:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'I')t is just to say that it is no surprise we get the politics we ask for.

Truer words are seldom heard!
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby aflurry » Thu 03 May 2007, 15:57:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'Y')ou cannot blame the American people for not knowing the underling problems with gasoline and PO in general.


Oh, yes you can... They have access to the same information as you and I do.

Of course, you may wonder what you get in return for blaming them... what is the point of it... i mean, it isn't going to do any good at all.

Criticizing an administration or a company, or even a groups of companies, or "The Corporations," at least can lead to some theorhetical effect in the form of electoral defeat, consumer choice, boycott, lawsuits, whatever.

But the more diffuse you get, the less effective your blame becomes.... "the people" is as diffuse as you can get.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Zardoz » Thu 03 May 2007, 16:13:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The NY Daily News', '
')"Americans are fed up with skyrocketing gasoline prices and they want action."

Yeah, well, I want Cate Blanchett, and I can't have her, either.

We're at the dawn of The Great Peak Oil Awakening, folks. We're being roused out of our deep slumber. It'll be progressive, and it'll take a while, but the masses are going to attain an enlightened state. They'll be kicking, screaming, and squealing all the way down the road to enlightenment, but they'll get there.

Be patient with them. Give them time to catch up.
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Twilight » Thu 03 May 2007, 16:17:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sheb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('What2DO', 'S')ure you will hear some stories of people pawning their wedding rings and tv's or what not to buy gas but those people should'nt have a car anyways. They can barley afford one when prices are low.

Seriously, have you seen such stories? That would make me think that they were expecting prices to go back down again to "normal", so they can get their things back out of hock. Either that, or maybe they are so far into the hand-to-mouth, just-in-time existence that the Pawn shop is their only option.

On FOX News last summer, some ageing veteran pawning one of his antique watches (he had several) to fill up his ancient Jaguar XJ. He got $200. He said he would keep doing it. Something tells me his next watch will go a little less far this summer.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Thu 03 May 2007, 17:29:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sheb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('What2DO', 'S')ure you will hear some stories of people pawning their wedding rings and tv's or what not to buy gas but those people should'nt have a car anyways. They can barley afford one when prices are low.
Seriously, have you seen such stories? That would make me think that they were expecting prices to go back down again to "normal", so they can get their things back out of hock. Either that, or maybe they are so far into the hand-to-mouth, just-in-time existence that the Pawn shop is their only option.

We had people pawning their shit when the Enron electricity gouging was going on. They did not expect to be sure of getting their shit back, either. It was all over the news, and was especially prevelent out in places like Palmdale where the houses are big and sprawl is a way of life.
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Sheb » Thu 03 May 2007, 17:56:49

Thanks for those takes on it. Out of curiosity, what was Fox's spin on it (I'm guessing there was a spin on it).

Well, two things come to mind when I see that sort of thing...
1.) Yikes!
2.) It's going to be a buyers market soon. If one were to take care of the first few eschelons on the survival hierarchy (food and water, and possibly fuel), with plenty of variety and surplus, one could simply trade down for other needs (tools, building materials, clothes, livestock).
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby Valdemar » Thu 03 May 2007, 18:07:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idomar', 'T')he British government have a 4 meals from anarchy scenario, which basically states that a society is only 4 missed meals from anarchy. The Times 2004
I think that the British public are just as blissfully unaware as anyone else that their way of life will come crashing around their ears. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the choice between driving and eating hits.
The Govt has 'contingency plans' and I would love to know what the contingency plans are, the British govt are notoriously secretive about such matters, but i seem to remember that posse comitatus in the US has been revoked and they have that nice new shiny microwave cooker crowd dispersal thingy. Bring along your own roadkill to the BBQ, free energy at least

Great article. And I can certainly vouch for the fact that the UK, as with the US, is just as ignorant. I'd say most of the world is that isn't already lining up for fuel, like most of Africa. Frankly, this calm before the storm despite previous warnings, always reminds me of the total lack of anything happening after the Martians land in The War of the Worlds. As the great Richard Burton said:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems totally incredible to me now that everyone spent that evening as though it were just like any other. From the railway station came the sound of shunting trains, ringing and rumbling, softened almost into melody by the distance. It all seemed so safe and tranquil.

Funny how I could see that happening. Right now, the idea of aliens destroying our civilisation is no different to a global energy crisis, yet we're blindly going about our lives, oblivious to what has happened in the past. The chances of oil peaking in our lives, is a million to one he said...
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Re: Clueless in America

Unread postby clueless » Thu 03 May 2007, 19:28:24

You guys called me ?????

What ? What's all this talk about Clueless ??? Don't I have aright to an unlimited supply of petroleum ??

Hey wait - You guys must be oil company shills..Or wait, is it CFR ? or the Club of Rome ? Whatever consipiricy is out there you guys must be part of it...

I mean if you guys don't think like Faux News thinks then you must be wrong.....Right ???
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