[mididoctors]

Ok why would rationing of some sort not work? all economic solutions presented be it invisible hand to taxes all must reduce per capita consumption averages to be deemed successful..

ie in the end they ALL mimic the effects of rationing

Lets get some thoughts on this "unmentionable" topic

Boris
London

[NEOPO]

Its not taboo really.

Jevon's Paradox and the lack of political will to institute rationing prior to any major shortage is what they/we/peakers see usually and doesnt that seem logical considering our collective history?

The reality is that rationing is like taking a pill for a headache but not trying to find the reason for the headache and then doing what must be done to prevent future headaches.

I believe it would "help" yet without direction I am not sure what it will help or whom.
We must seek a permanent remedy or "cure". Do not get excited Jack because what you are probably thinking is not what I am referring to

[auscanman]

I'd fully support a carbon and fuel quota per individual, but I would want the quota to be tradeable. I'll be living close to where I work, sharing an apartment with several others, and will be using virtually no fuel and have a CO2 output far below the average, so I'll have plenty of credits to auction off.

It would bring me great satisfaction to see fat-assed suburbanites amassed before me, desperately bidding one another up to try to secure my spare quota in their attempt to continue their profligate lifestyle.

I could pour all that money into my preparations for PO.

[auscanman]

I will be auctioning off 20 liters of gasoline quota! Lets get the bidding started.......

me: 30 minutes later: Do I hear $205?

300lb man in front row raises hand.

me: ok $210? No? Going once, going twice, SOLD! (to the tub of lard in the front row who drives a Hummer, commutes 40 miles each way, has 4 kids and lives in a mcmansion)

[Jack]

Rationing creates the incentive for a massive black market. If, for example, the consumer can auction 20 liters for $205 dollars, someone upstream of the consumer can get$200 for that same 20 liters. It's an opportunity for those who care to seize it.

So if you want more organized crime and corruption, support rationing. Lord knows I do.

[mididoctors]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'R')ationing creates the incentive for a massive black market. If, for example, the consumer can auction 20 liters for $205 dollars, someone upstream of the consumer can get$200 for that same 20 liters. It's an opportunity for those who care to seize it.

So if you want more organized crime and corruption, support rationing. Lord knows I do.

[vision-master]

I can't see it happening. I picture the US to keep raising the prices until the poorer folk are squeezed out of the market. Simple economics.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mididoctors', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'R')ationing creates the incentive for a massive black market. If, for example, the consumer can auction 20 liters for $205 dollars, someone upstream of the consumer can get$200 for that same 20 liters. It's an opportunity for those who care to seize it.

So if you want more organized crime and corruption, support rationing. Lord knows I do.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mididoctors', '
')
what happens if the allowance is tradable but this does not include the actual gas... you still need to buy it

the price of the gas is separate

Boris
London

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'I') can't see it happening. I picture the US to keep raising the prices until the poorer folk are squeezed out of the market. Simple economics.

[Twilight]

These days, rationing is a sure way of losing control of a situation. However, that doesn't mean it won't be tried.

Rationing worked well in the UK during WW1 and WW2, but this was with a uniquely compliant population and a black market formed even so. Trying it today, when everyone has an entrepreneurial attitude to money-making (once exposed to eBay, never the same), you are going to have BIG problems.

In comparison, leaving market forces to price people out would result in a more orderly redistribution of consumption, with less economic distortion involving criminal enterprise.

But since governments miss the paradigm shift on just about every cultural change, they're going to try it.

[IanC]

Jack,

I take your point - there will be a lot of avenues for corruptions and counterfeiting. However, those avenues exist now for many items and, it seems, our current monetary system is already fairly corrupts and prone to manipulation (think insider trading, S&L crisis, Arms for Hostages, etc and on and on). Bad guys will always try to game whatever system is out there.

The benefits of rationing are many, too. If nothing else, it think it has the potential to force transportation and housing alternatives and more equitably distribute energy resources. It will be incumbent on government to provide these transportation and housing alternatives. Our current system can't last and a rationing regime would make that abundantly clear. True, many people would cough up the money to commute, but many more won't because they can't. Those folks will need more or less independant self-sufficient communities well connected to public transportation. The 'burbs will need to die.

My ulterior motive is that I live centrally in a city with great transportation and my family really does not NEED our one vehicle. I, too can't wait to put my fuel credits on Ebay and satisfy my greed for expensive, handmade musical instruments!!! The sad part is, if there is an economic need for rationing, I think the political pressure and frustration of the populace would boil over and I'll be hiding in my basement to practice!

-IanC

[MaterialExcess]

I think some form of rationing is inevitable. You cannot just allow the free market to price people out. Some low wage earners still have important roles in the economy. What happens if the people who work in grocery stores cannot afford to drive to work?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('IanC', 'T')he benefits of rationing are many, too. If nothing else, it think it has the potential to force transportation and housing alternatives and more equitably distribute energy resources.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MaterialExcess', 'I') think some form of rationing is inevitable. You cannot just allow the free market to price people out. Some low wage earners still have important roles in the economy. What happens if the people who work in grocery stores cannot afford to drive to work?

[Auntie_Cipation]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MaterialExcess', 'I') think some form of rationing is inevitable. You cannot just allow the free market to price people out. Some low wage earners still have important roles in the economy. What happens if the people who work in grocery stores cannot afford to drive to work?

[NEOPO]

After more thought on the matter, I agree with Jack on principle yet I wonder if I can get him to agree with me likewise.
The war on drugs, SSDD. TPTB have found a way to make it "pay" thus if there is rationing that will inevitably lead to a black market then there will inevitably be agents of the state in on the action just like they are with the present day drug trade.

Do you agree? Are you a L.E.A.P cop er not?!!?

Aren't we rationed anyways considering the inequality of wealth distribution?
Of course we are. Imagine how many hummers would be taking kids to soccer games if everyone could afford one.
Imagine how many 10,000 sf mansions would be built if everyone had a few million dollars.

The price is a way of rationing and yes the poor are going to get screwed first but in time so will 90%+ of the rest so Enjoy!
See! Rationing works!!! it all depends on how you look at it...

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'A')ren't we rationed anyways considering the inequality of wealth distribution?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '.')..
The reality is that rationing is like taking a pill for a headache but not trying to find the reason for the headache and then doing what must be done to prevent future headaches.
...

[IanC]

Unfortunately that means 5 billion people will need to die off.

I think they are already starting to die off. The images of starving people in the 3rd World have been ubuquitous my whole life. I can't wait to see how massive depopulation through starvation and war is repackaged for our TV watching public. How will they make it palatable for us? Which Hollywood star will lead the Telethon to Save the Victims of the Post Peak Cataclysm?

-Ian