[keehah]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ohnLudi: The thing I've noticed (and I'm wondering if any of you folks have as well) is that the level of denial seems to be commensurate with the level of risk: the higher the clear and present danger, the deeper the heads sink into the sand.

Gotta be some way of charting that, just for a giggle.

[Pops]

Kee, that is almost more than I can digest. I get cognitive dissonance I think: the inability (or at least discomfort) of holding two disparate beliefs (points of view, whatever) at the same time - right?

I think too I understand your point about reality (or ones conviction as to an approaching reality) overcoming one belief (the socially accepted one) and crystallizing the other, less mainstream, one.

Eh?

I wonder though, if the guy with the big debt and big responsibility and oil dependant lifestyle might not (given a nudge like an increasing energy and food bill, along with a rumor of big trouble in his particular line of work) take an even harder look at his situation than the footloose bachelor in his paid-off enclave?

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
I wonder though, if the guy with the big debt and big responsibility and oil dependant lifestyle might not (given a nudge like an increasing energy and food bill, along with a rumor of big trouble in his particular line of work) take an even harder look at his situation than the footloose bachelor in his paid-off enclave?

[Omnitir]

I find it a strange notion that there is no point in raising awareness. What if PO became a mainstream concern? Could this possibly have positive results? If everyone was concerned, then perhaps we would see wide scale increases in conservation and efficiency, or maybe projects striving for sustainability would be given more thought? If enough members of society were concerned about an issue, any issue, government would be forced to act, regardless of vested interests.

The only scenario where raising awareness is pointless is if civilization is going to collapse momentarily. But this is most unlikely. Civilizations tend to take time to collapse, and the more we are prepared for change pre PO, the easier the change will be.

People do need to be made aware of PO. But not because they should be planting a vege garden and learning to hunt (not that there’s anything wrong with that), but because society as a whole is going to change soon, and the earlier that change starts, the better.

[Ibon]

There is some consensus that the suffering of consequences will be the catalyst that will be transfomative. There is also consensus that events to cause this suffering are on the short term horizon. If you put that together it is not hard to conclude that awareness will be coming soon to many people currently clueless. A rather sad irony that many will be awakened as we slip into the die-off. But that is as it should be. We transform when we walk the knife's edge. Last minute awareness will be too late for a lot of the suffering that could have been prevented but looked at from another point of view I wouldn't underestimate what an awakened society might generate when survival leaves the abstract and arrives at your doorstep.

[Roy]

Omnitir, I appreciate your views, but being deeply cynical, I would answer this question:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat if PO became a mainstream concern?

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', '.')..I'm far enough away from the "big city" to avoid swarms of zombies...

[UFCjunkie]

I'm done trying to change peoples minds but sometimes I trow in a short conversation about how I think our future look like and what I think is going to happen and ofcourse why.

I don't do this to make people change there minds I do it so when TSHTF, I want them to remember that there where people who knew about it longtime before it happned. I'm not sure if they will remember my words but thats why I sometimes tell people, I don't care how crazy they think I am.

And about the thinking that we still can change the world and stop the process...
I have to say no f way.
Oil is power! To make a difference we have to change the way we are living and that means cuting down our use of oil. That will lead to disarming and become more vulnerable. This will only make other contrys take advantage of the situation and take control of the remaining oil and with that have more power.

I believe that this has to go all the way, no one will let go until its over, at least thats what I think. So the only thing we can do to make things better is getting in our cars and drive, drive, drive and drive. Or do you have an plane, fly! Anything to get rid of the oil as fast as possible. I believe as long there is oil this will continue, the people who runs the world have been PO aware for decades and the aint going to change there minds now.

We don't live in democracy...perhaps democrazy but not democracy. I think it will show that we don't have much to say about anything, we just think we do, at least as long there is oil.

[gg3]

No, don't drive drive drive, because that'll just drive the climate catastrophe faster and further.

---

Ludi, if you're looking for a community to join up with, email me via PM on this board.

---

When I said, talk to the people close to you and save them if you can, and let the sheeple darwinize themselves, I did not mean give up on civic action.

We have to be civically engaged, using every tool at our disposal, most notably the ballot box and changes in our spending habits.

Peak oil is going to be a picnic compared to the climate catastrophe. The UN report says we're in for a minimum of + 2 degrees celsius, and potentially as much as + 6 by the end of this century.

According to Lovelock, who has the science down tight, + 5 will be enough to make most of the world uninhabitable to humans. We might get by with as many as a tenth of a billion. If we're lucky.

There's a reasonable chance we can build our way out of peak oil if we have to, with enough nuclear, solar, wind, conservation, and so on, and saving the remaining oil for use as a critical industrial feedstock. Those adjustments we could make incrementally, responding to market signals.

But we can't build our way out of climate change except by making changes that are so radical that they will have to anticipate market signals by multiple decades. And that is not going to happen. In any case there's the little problem of overpopulation, which nature is going to solve for us unless we either stop multiplying like mice, or we have a nuclear war first.

The best we can do is mitigate the intensity and duration of the climate crash. And that is worth doing with every muscle in your body and every nerve in your brain. Each degree of warming between +2 and +6 that we can avoid, means a greater chance for humans and for the earth in general.

So don't try to persuade people who won't listen, except to persuade them to vote for whichever candidates are most on the ball about this stuff. And it is definitely worth persuading them to vote.

For that you don't have to pour on the doom sauce. All you have to do is bitch about gas prices, mention "we're about to hit peak oil and then it'll be like the 1970s all over again until we get substitute energy sources on line..." and then say "vote for so-and-so, s/he's the best of the bunch this time." And if you want to add just a dash of doom sauce, at the very end mention, "by the way, fossil fuels are where we get our agricultural fertilizers from." Leave them with that and let it gnaw at them.

And get on with your preparations, and gather up the people close to you, and get ready for the 21st century that almost no one in the 20th ever saw coming.

And if you have kids, they are going to live through the major crunch and the transition, so do it for them.

The main thing is: never surrender, never give up, never give in. We're in the fight of the century, and the fight for the survival of humanity as we know it, and the fight for the survival of 20 to 30% of the species on earth.

And if you ever think of giving up or giving in, read some stories from WW2.

---

The opinions expressed above are solely my own and do not speak for other individuals or groups with which/whom I am affiliated.

[UFCjunkie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'N')o, don't drive drive drive, because that'll just drive the climate catastrophe faster and further.

[Grifter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'I') don't care how crazy they think I am.

[Ebyss]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eak oil is going to be a picnic compared to the climate catastrophe. The UN report says we're in for a minimum of + 2 degrees celsius, and potentially as much as + 6 by the end of this century.

[Iaato]

Why bother to swim against the tide? Casaubon has got a nice essay on why good people should choose not to partake in the parts of the current system that don't match their current values.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')henever anyone says to you, "one person cannot make a difference" remember this - some day you will face your children, or G-d, or your own conscience. Being able to do that, and say "I fought back" may be the greatest legacy you can leave. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps we might also enable this planet to remain a place fit for human habitation.

[UFCjunkie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'T')his is why I don't worry about Peak Oil. Humans have lived, and lived well, without oil for millennia. Global Warming, on the other hand, scares the everloving shit out of me. There is a deep irony in the fact that I laugh at those who say "technology will save us from Peak Oil disaster", all the while praying that "technology will save us from Global Warming". I don't know what else to pray for.

[Ebyss]

I thought the same thing, but then I found out about Global Dimming . As soon as we stop pumping oil into the atmosphere, the globe will heat up real fast.

Catch 22. It's a no-win situation. I can't see a way out. That's what scares me.

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')he main thing is: never surrender, never give up, never give in. We're in the fight of the century, and the fight for the survival of humanity as we know it, and the fight for the survival of 20 to 30% of the species on earth.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UFCjunkie', 'P')eak Oil is why I'm not afraid of Global Warming.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', 'O')mnitir, I appreciate your views, but being deeply cynical, I would answer this question:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat if PO became a mainstream concern?

[Roy]

Yes, a cynic I am. Dyed in the wool.

But that doesn't mean I'm not living the change I want to see. I've already done a great deal, though there is much, much more to be done.

Pops, a long time member here, has been an inspiration for me (in terms of his response to PO) and inspired me through his action to take like actions. That has been a great thing for me and my family in many ways.

Pops, I owe you a beer and some fresh produce if you're ever in my neck o' the woods.

Hopefully, my "actions speaking louder than my words" will influence others that I know. Undoubtedly, there are a lot of Americans who have a vested economic interest in the status quo. Like Upton Sinclair wrote about people not being able to understand something if their salary depends upon them not understanding it.

I've stopped talking about it, with the exception of this echo chamber, err forum, and now focus on action.

I think PO will become an issue for the mainstream only when its effects are "slapping them in the face" and can't be denied despite the lunatic ravings of the pundits on TV telling us that only wackos believe that oil is finite (even Alex Jones says that).

By that time it may be too late to mitigate the worst effects. Many PO scholars tend to align with that POV. Its easy for someone as deeply cynical as myself to see why.

So, I answer questions when asked, help when requested, and let my family/friends continue living their lives as they see fit. They're either going to come around or they won't. Some posters have gone so far as to say they see them (the uniformed/unaware) as "walking dead people". Perhaps they're even more cynical than myself?

My evangelical zeal to spread the word a few years ago only served to alienate and not enlighten in about 95% of the cases. To entrench the denial response in those people.

Sage advice has been give in this thread, and I for one appreciate it.

PO is the "forbidden zone" in familial and friendly discussions nowadays in my world, unless someone goes there first and asks for my opinion.

I'll leave it to the more convincing and charismatic types to spread the PO message and continue being the change I want to see.

Hope I didn't offend you Omnitir, for that was not my intent.

Peace.

[UFCjunkie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ebyss', 'I') thought the same thing, but then I found out about Global Dimming . As soon as we stop pumping oil into the atmosphere, the globe will heat up real fast.

Catch 22. It's a no-win situation. I can't see a way out. That's what scares me.