[Kingcoal]

I think what you guys are forgetting is that the excise taxes on goods and services already exist. This "fair tax" wouldn't be new; it would just be another excise tax lumped on top of the other millions of excises out there. Talk about double taxation!

Promoting a new tax as a way to reform the tax system is not the right approach. People forget that this is how the income tax was born. The income tax started out as something that only affected the rich and look at it now. The way to reform the tax system is to make government smaller, more efficient, so it doesn't need so much money. I think that is what our founding fathers intended and I think that they would be disgusted by the modern citizen’s belief that the government owes him money (benefit programs.)

[Tyler_JC]

Well obviously we don't want to have a fair tax AND an income tax.

We just want to replace the income tax with the fair tax.

If the government tried to do both, I'd be angry.

[firestarter]

For the many socialistas that populate this joint:



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his unsigned editorial, written by Murray N. Rothbard, appeared in the April 15, 1969 issue of The Libertarian (soon to become The Libertarian Forum).

April 15, that dread Income Tax day, is around again, and gives us a chance to ruminate on the nature of taxes and of the government itself.

The first great lesson to learn about taxation is that taxation is simply robbery. No more and no less. For what is "robbery"? Robbery is the taking of a man's property by the use of violence or the threat thereof, and therefore without the victim's consent. And yet what else is taxation?

Those who claim that taxation is, in some mystical sense, really "voluntary" should then have no qualms about getting rid of that vital feature of the law which says that failure to pay one's taxes is criminal and subject to appropriate penalty.

But does anyone seriously believe that if the payment of taxation were really made voluntary, say in the sense of contributing to the American Cancer Society, that any appreciable revenue would find itself into the coffers of government? Then why don't we try it as an experiment for a few years, or a few decades, and find out?

But if taxation is robbery, then it follows as the night the day that those people who engage in, and live off, robbery are a gang of thieves. Hence the government is a group of thieves, and deserves, morally, aesthetically, and philosophically, to be treated exactly as a group of less socially respectable ruffians would be treated.

This issue of The Libertarian is dedicated to that growing legion of Americans who are engaging in various forms of that one weapon, that one act of the public which our rulers fear the most: tax rebellion, the cutting off the funds by which the host public is sapped to maintain the parasitic ruling classes.

Here is a burning issue which could appeal to everyone, young and old, poor and wealthy, "working class" and middle class, regardless of race, color, or creed. Here is an issue which everyone understands, only too well. Taxation.

[Tyler_JC]

That's nice...and how would the military be funded without tax revenue?

What about FEMA, veteran's benefits, Department of Energy, Amtrak, highways, FBI, CIA, etc.?

Not everything the government does is horrible and oppressive.

I would not oppose giving 10% of GDP to the federal government so that they can regulate the other 90%.

On a moral level I agree with the previous poster. Taxes=Theft.

But on a practical level, I would not want to live in a society without some kind of government to regulate interstate commerce, provide a system of weights and measures, protect the borders and our interests abroad, and protect property rights.

[cynicalheretic]

I don't want a military
I don't want a government
I don't want the IRS
I don't want to pay taxes.

If the people want to defend the country, each state could organize militias. 20 warheads launched into space above each continent and send down a super powerful emp and we can be back to the good old days.

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's nice...and how would the military be funded without tax revenue?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"On a moral level I agree with the previous poster. Taxes=Theft."
Then how do you square this sentiment with your above comments?

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
Ever heard of Adam Smith?

There are three functions of government.

[128shot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
Ever heard of Adam Smith?

There are three functions of government.

[Tyler_JC]

I'm taking a direct quote, you're paraphrasing.

In the competitive world of pointless internet arguing, I win.

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'W')ell obviously we don't want to have a fair tax AND an income tax.

We just want to replace the income tax with the fair tax.

If the government tried to do both, I'd be angry.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '
')In other words how would the military industrial complex be funded? Absent coercion, it wouldn't. Good riddance

All of these wasteful, environmental degradating, bureaucratic ho houses could not exist without point of a gun wealth confiscation. We'd all be the better had they not existed at all. Good riddance.

If it's accomplished vis a vis force then it is horrible and oppressive...by definition.

How about the 25% they actually steal right now? Is that too much?

Then how do you square this sentiment with your above comments?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut on a practical level, I would not want to live in a society without some kind of government to regulate interstate commerce, provide a system of weights and measures, protect the borders and our interests abroad, and protect property rights.

[Pretorian]

sorry for off-top, I've heard if you are fully declare your income- but dont pay (due to whatever reaon- say, I just dont have the money)-- they cant really grab your ass if the summ isnt big enough? And that they have only 7 years to collect by whatever means? Is this true?

[mefistofeles]

Although I'm not a tax scholar any system other than a flat tax is designed to be unfair and treat some groups better than others.

For example in progressive tax systems the rich are pay a higher tax rate not just in absolute terms but in relative terms as well. The more you make the higher your tax rate.

Also progressive tax systems have features designed to benefit certain groups of people.

For example in the United States interest paid on mortgages is deductable. This benefits home owners who get a tax deduction for merely borrowing money and paying interest, a benefit that isn't available to someone who rents.

Another example would be municipal bonds that have generate no federal tax liabilities on interest income and no state tax liabilities in the jurisdictions that they are issued.

Obviously this is a very favorable tax treatment and it isn't fair and allows municipals to pay lower rates of interest.

The consequence of this is that a wealthy person could simply take a large position in municipal bonds and receive interest income tax free.

All progreesive and regressive tax systems by their very nature will be unfair.