[nero]

gg3, interesting point about how emotions can be dangerous. I agree that they are very powerful rhetorical tools and therefore inherently dangerous. Actions (or words) may indeed have unintended consequences but to unilaterly choose not to use emotional arguments is to intentionally fight with one hand tied behind your back. As long as competing ideas agree to stick to the facts it's alright but we have plentiful evidence that they don't. Every time a skeptic uses words like "cooky", "crackpot",or "conspiracy theorist" they aren't appealing to science, facts or logic but to the reader's emotions. I.E. their fear of also being labeled a crackpot if they dare to actually take peak oil seriously.

In an ideal world ideas would stand on their own worth, but as I grow older the less I trust the truth to prevail. It often gets ignored and left to dry academic historians to note as a footnote to what actually happened. For example although Iraq didn't have WMD in the end what counted was the emotional (and racist) arguments that were used to rally the American public behind the war.

[nero]

MonteQuest, I agree most of us have become specialists at living in an extremely interdependent world and would fare very poorly in a disturbed environment where our institutional cocoon is shredded. We would make extremely poor colonizers, it reminds me of Isaac Azimov's Caves of Steel series where the Spacers had grown so comfortable in their robot based society that they no longer were capable of colonizing new worlds. Similarly it could be argued that if our oil based society fell apart very few of us would be capable of managing and that the people who could survive the best are the poor peasant farmers in Africa or India.

Yes industrialized society has energy illiterates but as long as the complex society continues to exist that isn't a problem for them. It is a problem for society as a whole however since it makes it impossible for society to come to a rational decision on what to do about the coming crisis. That is the real "energy illiteracy" problem to my way of thinking.

[MonteQuest]

Speaking of illiteracy, I ran across this article today:

Green economic illiteracy and alternative energy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, in a free market one does not run out of resources... The idea that the world's resources put a limit on economic growth is ludicrous...It's because these alternative energy sources are destructively expensive that the green leadership advocate them.

[WebHubbleTelescope]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')peaking of illiteracy, I ran across this article today:

Green economic illiteracy and alternative energy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, in a free market one does not run out of resources... The idea that the world's resources put a limit on economic growth is ludicrous...It’s because these alternative energy sources are destructively expensive that the green leadership advocate them.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')peaking of illiteracy, I ran across this article today:

Green economic illiteracy and alternative energy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')urthermore, in a free market one does not run out of resources... The idea that the world's resources put a limit on economic growth is ludicrous...It’s because these alternative energy sources are destructively expensive that the green leadership advocate them.

[holmes]

Monte,
nothing can go anywhere when there is overpopulation and exponential growth.
Earthship biotechture must be implemented world wide for the evolution into a sustainable society.

Must use the constant 58 degrees the earth supplies below the frost line. The earth supplies all we need to stay warm and survive.

individuals and groups must take this step.
also the present housing and develpeoment is 180 degrees south of sustainablility.

You want to build sustainable comunities?
I am already on it.
Its what must be done.
the housing market must go sustainable or death.
Keeping the status quo must be cast aside.
The present scale can never be under a sustainable society.

http://www.earthship.com/

[Cool Hand Linc]

I just have to address this off topic

MQ wrote$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Science and religion. Hmm...Bush won a second term with a 3 1/2 million-vote margin. Many of the people who voted for him believe, or want to believe, that the United States is God's instrument on this earth. The religious right focused on morality rather than energy or foreign policy to re-elect Bush.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MissingLink', '
')I voted for Bush. I do not believe that the US is God's Instrument on Earth. I didn't focus on morality but am not unhappy with Bush's morality. I am not totally unhappy with his foreign policy either. We differ on this subject but your statement about the religious right focusing on morality rather energy and foreign policy is wrong. This may be what you believe but it is wrong.

[Cool Hand Linc]

It is really amazing how many people really understand little about energy.

nero wrote$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')imilarly it could be argued that if our oil based society fell apart very few of us would be capable of managing and that the people who could survive the best are the poor peasant farmers in Africa or India.

[fastbike]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')So the guy's a dipstick. What is the context of this articlle, apparently wriiten in May 2003 in some Australian paper, loaded with typos?

[Cool Hand Linc]

I can't help but smile reading your post. MQ

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MissingLink', 'I') can't help but smile reading your post. MQ

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MissingLink', 'A')re these people in the category of energy illiterate? I would think they could be termed as such. Not stupid or dumb but unknowing of the more advanced energy world. So it does seem logical that they will far better without the energy.

[Cool Hand Linc]

Nero, you are correct sir. I guess I showed my illiteracy of energy when it comes to the situation they are currently in.

I remember when I was young. My grand parents house had a had pump well and an out house. I became aware of the energy required to clean the dishes because Grandma told me to fetch the water.

Then when it came to bath time. We put a big tub about 25 feet from the pump and used a hose to pump to the tub. A few stepping stones were used to step onto after the bath to keep the feet clean until dry. Then turning over the tub and filing for the next.

I remember pumping until I could not hold my arms up just for us all to baths.

I was aware of the energy required for water.

[MonteQuest]

As I can recall, world-wide, two billion people do not have access to electricity, and two billion use fuelwood or dung for heating and cooking. Poor rural women and children may spend four to six hours travelling seven to ten miles and collect only enough firewood for one day's cooking and heating needs. They are intimately "literate" with regard to "their" energy needs. Are we? Hardly so.

[MonteQuest]

I was in a book store over the holidays and listened to a conversation a small group of folks were having about Iraq, energy and such. Their conversation got me thinking about this thread. Too many Americans believe that the only reason we're not using cleaner alternatives, like wind or hydrogen, is that energy companies don't want us to. Thus, readily available alternatives are waiting in the wings. No need to worry. This is the populist version of energy illiteracy and the theme of the conversation. Yes, energy companies will fight hard to guard their investment in the status quo. But as we know, it is also true that most energy alternatives can't yet compete with fossil fuels. Myself, I believe this is because fossil fuels are too cheap, not that alternatives are too expensive. If one factors in the external costs of fossil fuels that we ignore, i.e., pollution, health care, enviromental degradation, etc., I think you would find them quite competitive. Anyone know of any study in this area?

Or consider household appliances. Here in America, consumers consistently buy the cheaper appliance, even though the extra cost of the more efficient model would be more than paid back by its greater efficiency. Such willful ignorance is one of the reasons that American energy consumption is rising steadily. How might America cure itself of energy illiteracy? Not sure. But to get the process started, here are 10 things I think that every human being should know about energy.

1. A basic understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

2. In an energy system dominated by oil, energy independence is a myth.

3. The world's production of oil, gas, and coal will soon peak.

4. No "single" magic bullet or techno-fix will solve our energy crisis.

5. There is no substitute for conservation and efficiency if you can overcome Jevon's Paradox. (Good chance to make matters worse over time)

6. No matter what we do near term, we still have to deal with exponential population growth and the associated increase in energy consumption.

7. Our entire debt-based monetary system is designed for an infinite resource world.

8. We cannot buy primary science to fix the crisis.

9. Increased use of other fossil fuels to replace oil will accelerate global warming and climate change.

10. We can't control oil prices due to Peak Oil.

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'M')yself, I believe this is because fossil fuels are too cheap, not that alternatives are too expensive. If one factors in the external costs of fossil fuels that we ignore, i.e., pollution, health care, enviromental degradation, etc., I think you would find them quite competitive. Anyone know of any study in this area?

[MonteQuest]

Thanks! Just what I was looking for. Talk about the reality of energy illiteracy being an obstacle. A quote from the study:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he ultimate result of the externalization of such a large portion of the real price of gasoline is that consumers have no idea how much fueling their cars actually costs them. The majority of people paying just over $1 for a gallon of gasoline at the pump has no idea that through increased taxes, excessive insurance premiums, and inflated prices in other retail sectors that that same gallon of fuel is actually costing them between $5.60 and $15.14. When the price of gasoline is so drastically underestimated in the minds of drivers, it becomes difficult if not impossible to convince them to change their driving habits, accept alternative fuel vehicles, support mass transit, or consider progressive residential and urban development strategies.

[Rock]

MQ Wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')verspecialization, say the biologists, is one of the most important contributing factors in a species becoming extinct.

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')1. A basic understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

4. No "single" magic bullet or techno-fix will solve our energy crisis.