[fonzcad3]

"Sure, and we would be praising any innovation to the heavens if it had even the slightest little outside chance of replacing the thermal content and molecular structure of oil and gas.

What so many people are having so much difficulty with is understanding how utterly irreplaceable crude oil is. Quit deluding yourself. Get this: There is no substitute for crude oil. A substitute for petroleum simply does not exist in the universe. "



This is exactly the kind of group think that I think makes reading these posts boring. Although in general I agree with the above post, I believe that if a scientist came out tommorrow with a cheap, limitless support of energy and had the data to back it up, you zardoz would go "BAH HUMBUG" and dismiss it with a wave of the hand. I've found myself becoming pessimistic as well, but I think there is some hope, maybe a sliver. I think it is extremely close minded to declare with utter certainty that there is no substitute EVER for crude. Especially since most of us on here don't have the backgrounds to evaluate every claim.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our telling them to say "F it" nothing can be done anyway....

[JasonHam]

How about learned to live on half the energy they live on now? If they don't, they're going to have to learn, and quick.

I think thats why they were calling the radio show. To ask questions about how to conserve energy.

Start with the truth. Work from there. The truth is, green energy doesn't even qualify as a band-aid remedy.

The truth and peak-oil. Thats funny!!!!!

So scrap the whole program altogether and do what? What YOU suggest? May I ask for your qualifications? Are you just one person suggesting what the truth is? Or is there any peer review of your "suggestions/conclusions"?

[killJOY]

You sound, angry, Jason. Would you like to talk about that?

1. Learning to live on half the energy one consumes is not "conservation." Conservation implies "saving" out of one's own will. But soon the energy is just not going to be there. A poor man doesn't refrain from buying lunch because he's "conserving" his money. He doesn't have it. If he knew how to garden, he wouldn't be in such dire straits.

So let's call it "pre-adapting" to energy scarcity. It's easy.

2. How about staying at home? A LOT. My "qualifications" include 20 years of farming experience. I cook ALL of my own food.

3. Instead of obsessing over compact fluorescent bulbs, how about getting rid of one's dryer (done that), electric hot water heater (done that, too), and television?

4. Ever live through a long blackout? I have.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e should be praising innovation, not disparaging it.

[JasonHam]

Angry? not at all. I may sound angry to you, because I'm questioning your beliefs and your thought process? You sound so convinced that your right about peak-oil and what is the "truth".

I'm not angry, just bored at work. Your the one with a screename of KillJoy.

Now, let me comment on your last post.



1. Learning to live on half the energy one consumes is not "conservation." Conservation implies "saving" out of one's own will. But soon the energy is just not going to be there. A poor man doesn't refrain from buying lunch because he's "conserving" his money. He doesn't have it. If he knew how to garden, he wouldn't be in such dire straits.

What???? Living off half the energy you use to consume by making simple life changes, like car-pooling and installing flourescent bulbs isn't conservation??? --- you lost me here.....You said "But soon energy is just not going to be there. Why are you so convinced of this?? Or maybe you just want it to be that way.....so you find something to read that identifies with the way you think things should be and you latch on to it, defend it, likes its a fact.

2. How about staying at home? A LOT. My "qualifications" include 20 years of farming experience. I cook ALL of my own food.
So you a farmer and you cook your own food. Great, so your qualified to tell the green movement that its full of shit. Is everybody following this?????

3. Instead of obsessing over compact fluorescent bulbs, how about getting rid of one's dryer (done that), electric hot water heater (done that, too), and television?
Millions and millions of people live in areas where they couldnt hang their clothes outside to dry and couldnt get rid of their hot water heater. TV??? take it....it will never happen, but who really NEEDS tv? My point is, just becuase you have done these thing doesnt make it a viable solution for everybody.

4. Ever live through a long blackout? I have.

Yeah, plenty of people have been through worse. There have been hurricanes, floods, droughts, ice-storms that have caused power-outages throughout the history of power. Yes, I have lived through a blackout...... I will say this, its should be a law to be prepared for an extended blackout.

[vision-master]

Here's a typical responce from "other forums" when I bring up PO.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')If it's gonna happen then let it. Let's just get this the fuck over with. Most of you fuckers in the bigger cities are going to die, but hell that's no skin off of my back. There should be around 30-80 Million of us left in the US after the oil runs out.

This backwoods redneck and his family will survive for many years after the worms have eaten your flesh and your bones have bleached white in the sun. I'll feel bad for you as you're starving to death, dying from drinking nonpotable water, and miserable because you're suffering from disease but hey...there's nothing I can do for you.

You should quit yammerin' about the doom 'n' gloom stuff fjr, maybe get some medication to calm your anxiety down some. There ain't shit you can do about it and if it happens you're a dead man anyway.

Now, roll over and accept your fate. All of this noise you're making is wearisome and fruitless.

[killJOY]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')iving off half the energy you use to consume by making simple life changes, like car-pooling and installing flourescent bulbs isn't conservation???

[NEOPO]

Do it Now! Jason!!!
Group think tells the sheeple they cannot do it.
So will their spouse, special friend, imaginary friend,teachers,doctor,parents,priest, fuckbuddy, etc etc et al. and even their own mind will tell them repeatedly "I cannot" as that is the real power of denial, rationalization AKA addiction.

KJ - mind if I use the name dancing pickled naked cabbage for my next hard rock band?
Blind Melon - No Rain Live
hah hah hah hah
One day you wake up reborn and until that day... you are dead.
I look back at several decades of my time and wonder where,what,who,how TF was I thinking!!!!
Maybe a million McMansion later perhaps half a million OTR miles and the realization of just how small the world really is I think I finally have it and now all I want to do is give it to everyone.

Run! run far away as I think it is slightly contagious but would have to get SPG's expert opinion before taking some toxic drug to cure what must be occurring naturally

Aaron tried to warn us about self love but do we listen???

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fonzcad3', 'I')n a school psychology class two years back I studied a concept called group think. Essentially people in a group are compelled to conform in thought. This leads to a stifling of dissenting discussion with potentially disastrous consequences. For example, the space shuttle Challenger disaster was caused by an O-ring failure in the Solid Rocket Booster. An engineer had raised concerns about these O-rings before the disaster but was dismissed out of hand because of pressure to get the launch off on time.

I've been lurking on this forum for a while now. I must admit that many of the opinions expressed on here are backed up by compelling reasoning and often I find myself agreeing with them. However, I have also noticed that any opinions against the group are so quickly dismissed, often without reasonable discussion, that I'm afraid this group has become a useless forum for rational debate. Many of the dissenters have long ago left the forum as I no longer see their posts.

Is there any way that we can convince these people to come back? I enjoy hearing that the world is not going to end because of such and such. No one on this forum is an expert in every area of study that might affect the outcome of peak oil (physics, chemistry, petroleum engineering, electrical engineering, sociology, psychology etc). There is also compelling research going on in energy as we speak. However, whenever one of these research options is presented it is always dismissed out of hand just because it isn't fossil fuel (aka: the status quo). It seems to me that society at large has the same opinion and this is dangerous. We should be praising innovation, not disparaging it.

[CrudeAwakening]

Well, it's hardly surprising that people on this board tend to share the same views. But surely that's less an inherent failing of this forum, and more a reflection of these facts:

Those people who are not convinced that there is a problem are less likely to want to spend time discussing a "non-problem" in a forum such as this. Particularly when the general perception promulgated by the media supports their beliefs. Although Michael Lynch has contributed from time to time, I don't think he visits this site daily.

The remaining groups of people are those who (a) think there could be a problem, but don't know much about the issue and want to learn more, and (b) those who have already learnt a lot about the issue and are concerned. I share people's concerns that those in group (a) shouldn't be told what to believe by those in group (b). But it's up to the individual to learn about the subject and draw their own conclusions. There are a multiplicity of perspectives to be found here, and if you only do enough research to satisfy your own preconceptions, then that is up to you.

If you have good arguments against what may be perceived as the doomer backbone of this site, then I say wield them as you wish and let the chips fall where they may. If there is some kind of Darwinian battle of viewpoints going on here, and the more doomeristic views tend to predominate over the cornucopian ones, might that not suggest something?

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')magine going to a site called Peak Oil and being given a hard time by "doomers". Why, they didn't expect the Spanish inquisition!

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fonzcad3', 'I')
I've been lurking on this forum for a while now. I must admit that many of the opinions expressed on here are backed up by compelling reasoning and often I find myself agreeing with them. However, I have also noticed that any opinions against the group are so quickly dismissed, often without reasonable discussion, that I'm afraid this group has become a useless forum for rational debate. Many of the dissenters have long ago left the forum as I no longer see their posts.

[SevenTen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'K')J - mind if I use the name dancing pickled naked cabbage for my next hard rock band?

[peaker_2005]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')magine going to a site called Peak Oil and being given a hard time by "doomers". Why, they didn't expect the Spanish inquisition!

[Polemic]

Cherrypicked from some random page:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '�')��True believers are not intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but are those craving to be rid of unwanted self. They are followers, not because of a desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy their passion for self-renunciation! They are eternally incomplete and eternally insecure.”

"... characterized as conventional, submissive to authority, and aggressive toward deviants and outsiders... excessive conformity; submissiveness to authority; intolerance; insecurity; superstition and; rigid, stereotyped thought patterns."

"They have typically been taught ‘what’ to think, rather than ‘how’ to think from birth. Instead of a philosophy based in reason to guide them, or show them the path, they rely on others, typically authoritarian figures, both alive and dead, to direct their thoughts and actions taken in life. Like all that suffer from deeper levels of psychosis, they refuse to acknowledge they even have a mental disorder where contact with reality has been completely lost or at best, highly distorted."

"Religion depends and demands on intolerance and bigotry because of its prime requirement for obstinate and unreasoning attachment to its beliefs unfounded in fact. Intolerance is needed for indoctrination and continued adherence to religious dogma. If the believer is not bigoted, the believer does not remain a devout member."

"A defining factor between the true believer and the freethinker in human populations of all societies around the world appears to be distinguished by the each individual’s subsequent ability or inability to utilize the most rudimentary levels of reasoning. These same true believer personalities exhibiting substandard abilities in reasoning flock to each other from finding emotional comfort in cults, mass movements, and large groups characterized by dependent group thought... They are the joiners and the followers who are always looking for authority, answers, meaning, guidance and enlightenment from outside themselves."

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I')f there is some kind of Darwinian battle of viewpoints going on here, and the more doomeristic views tend to predominate over the cornucopian ones, might that not suggest something?

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I')f there is some kind of Darwinian battle of viewpoints going on here, and the more doomeristic views tend to predominate over the cornucopian ones, might that not suggest something?

[SevenTen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'I')f there is some kind of Darwinian battle of viewpoints going on here, and the more doomeristic views tend to predominate over the cornucopian ones, might that not suggest something?